One less thug

[tarkus]

If you don't walk your dog at night the terrorists win.

"If we give in to fear, if we aren't able to do these simple and ordinary things, the terrorists have won the war."

[Excaliber]

I am starting to lose patience with this "cower" business.

- Jim

Jim,

Don't let the "cower thing" get to you. It's virtually inevitable that it will come up in any discussion that goes into whether or not someone was just going about his business or "asking for it" by deliberately and unnecessarily going into a situation where an attack is likely.

My read is that most folks using this phrase aren't attacking the courage of another member, but are expressing frustration at the idea of letting criminals take over public areas with local citizens de facto approval, because they then avoid those places and let the bad guys do what they want.

In this case, from the information we have, my read was that the CHL holder was simply and peaceably going about his business when he was confronted and took appropriate action. From your posts, it appears you saw walking in a park at night as an unnecessary risk because attacks do happen in parks after dark.

As others have pointed out, the history of the area is critical here. If the park was known as a gangbanger hangout and after dark robberies and other serious crimes were commonplace, I would lean toward your questioning of the reasonableness of the CHL holder's choosing that time and place to walk his dog (although in that case I'd also advocate an active outreach to the local PD to clean it up rather than just cede it to the bad guys).

If the park was known as a generally quiet place and that particular evening 4 thugs chose to change that, I'd say that the CHL holder acted reasonably, at least one of the bad guys got what he deserved, and the park may have acquired a new reputation among bad guys as a high risk area to conduct muggings - not a bad set of results in my book.

[seamusTX]

Thanks.

Perhaps my view is biased by the fact that I have lived most of my life in places where parks were or are the sites of illicit activity at night, and bodies turned up after dawn, along with crack vials and used latex items.

This is not entirely ancient history. A man who killed another man in Lasker Park in Galveston was acquitted of murder last week: http://galvestondailynews.com/story.las ... 2b7b04aac7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No one questions that this was a case of gang-bangers or drug dealers settling a score. Contemplate the meaning of not proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

- Jim

[Excaliber]

Thanks.

Perhaps my view is biased by the fact that I have lived most of my life in places where parks were or are the sites of illicit activity at night, and bodies turned up after dawn, along with crack vials and used latex items.

This is not entirely ancient history. A man who killed another man in Lasker Park in Galveston was acquitted of murder last week: http://galvestondailynews.com/story.las ... 2b7b04aac7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No one questions that this was a case of gang-bangers or drug dealers settling a score. Contemplate the meaning of not proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

- Jim

I understand the kinds of parks you're talking about, and have an intimate familiarity with them from my time in the northeast. Police wouldn't enter some of them except in force.

Fortunately not all parks are alike.

The surrounding area makes a big difference. A park in the middle of suburban single family homes is a lot more likely to be peaceful than one located in the midst of abandoned buildings and crack dens.

Bad guys generally congregate near where they live and do their business. There are a few who go on "hunting expeditions" into territory that's normally considered safe by the citizenry. These are the types you're most likely to run into in a low activity area if you run into any trouble at all.

[skip]

It took me awhile to read through all the posts before speaking. I gotta say I am of the opinion that the CHL'er did no wrong. While there are most certainly places I avoid out of common sense, I certainly wouldn't think walking my dog would be cause for suspicion. It did remind me that last night I walked my dog after dark without my gun because I had changed clothes already. (That was just plain lazy). As far as this conversation goes, I am glad we are not talking about some poor guy who just went out to walk his dog and was murdered. JMHO

[Broge5]

Like Skip, I read thru all the posts, and I agree that it is a good thing that the good guy is the one walking. For 20 years I have taught martial arts self defense. At the top of the list comes awareness and being prepared. Though I never considered it cowering, next on my list was to avoid high risk situations when possible. I don't have a dog to walk. I can see where some may need to walk after dark where others could, possibly less conveniently, adjust their schedule to a time of day where the light allowed for better awareness and reaction time. While I think that most of us would want to avoid this situation if possible, I assume there are some who take unnecessary chances or even relish the idea of ridding the world of one more piece of scum. I do not judge the man in question here, nor do I have enough information if I chose to. To paraphrase, someone on this site once said, "If I want to go somewhere that I feel I really need to carry, I don't go." To me, while it is not always feasible, there seems to be some wisdom in that without cowardice. I too believe in 24/7 or guess right.

My economics professor said, "Everything has a cost. To my wife, on a trip, she thinks how sad it would be to not stop to photograph the flowers. To me, all I can think of is how much closer to the destination I would be if we didn't. Everyone weighs their own perceivedcost." We do what we do because at the moment in our mind, we perceive it to be better than the next best choice.

I can't help but wonder where the line is that sentiment would change for this man. What if he were walking at 12am, 2am, 4am? Maybe this is when he gets off work. What if he were buying groceries at any of those times? What if it were at an ATM? All these are within his rights and should be able to be done without fear. Each of us has our own point where I think we can say for us that the potential cost simply becomes too high. It isn't cowering, it's just economics. Come on, how many of you have bought something on Ebay and paid too much because of your desire to win a bidding war? OK apples and oranges, but human behavior none the less.

I applaud this man and anyone else who rightfully draws his line and stands by it.

[seamusTX]

For the record, the frequency of robbery increases after dark, and it continues to increase until dawn, with an uptick at the time the bars close. Here's a scholarly paper on the issue:

http://www.forecastingprinciples.com/Co ... Simple.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There's nothing magical about any particular time. It's just that bad people want to do bad things in places with little traffic where they can't be seen, and a park at night tends to be such a place. School grounds are also, and that is why we have enhanced penalties for crimes committed on or near school grounds.

These crimes often seem to be opportunistically committed by people who went there to buy, sell, or use illegal drugs. That was the case in the news story that I linked to above.

I will walk on the street at any time of night, but I won't walk into a place that provides a lot of cover.

- Jim

[bryang]

Jim, I understood what you were trying to convey by your original post and evidently some missed it. Just because we have a gun strapped on it does not mean that we through out common sense. I have no idea why the guy was out walking his dog at that hour and in that particular location. You were not criticizing him, just trying to make a point, and that was not to tread where angles fear to go. And there is nothing cowardly about that at all...just good sense.

Thanks, for the article..it was very interesting.

-geo

[stroo]

Time and place are important. Given what we have learned about the park where this happened from one of the posters, I continue to believe that the victim in this case was not engaged in risky behavior by walking his dog at 10:20 pm in this park. In other parks in other towns, walking a dog after dark would not be advised and I know of some parks where I wouldn't walk a pit bull with a shotgun or AR strapped on my back at any time of day. The point is that you need to know the context before you can judge whether or not behavior is risky.

[Stupid]

what kind of dog was it?