Texas Open Carry – Positive

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flintknapper
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by flintknapper »

[quote="frazzled"]To Flint:
***I should note I have nothing against Austin, especially as I live there… :tiphat:
Nor do I. I spent about 1/2 my life there...and it is still the best "big city" in the State IMO.
Actually no. We did have property outside of Austin...but I grew up in the city. I graduated high school in 1972...and it was common place for students to have long-arms in gunracks...and even stand in parking lots handling them and discussing hunting, etc.... Part of the problem here is your propensity to "assume" rather than "listen".
****When I was in high school, truckers had racks as well. However no one walked around with a weapon except out in country. Handguns were NEVER seen in that fashion. Of course there was a raft of thefts and people quite carrying them (of course back then to drive a truck/SUV was to be considered a redneck-times have changed).
I am not saying folks anywhere regularly walked around with firearms (pistols or rifles). But I AM saying it was common place to see rifles,shotguns in the windows of pickups, in the trunks of cars...and that people worried not.... about standing outside their vehicle with one...or taking it in to a building, place of business, etc...to show it off. Handguns at one time...were permitted in vehicles while traveling...but LEO wanted them to be visible if readily accessible. Yes, times have changed.

There was scarcely a male student (excepting certain nerds) that did NOT have (and carry daily) a pocket knife of some sort to/in school. It was routine for a teacher to borrow a knife from a student to open a package, mail, whatever.
***True that, but anything larger and you were expelled.
A hunting knife in a sheath on your belt would no doubt attract attention even back then, but pocket knives were considered a utilitarian tool that almost every male carried.

Very funny, I am sure people tell you that all the time. No "Indian attacks".....or "attacks" of any other kind. That is precisely why we were allowed to have weapons in our vehicles and on our person (knives). We didn't attack each other with guns and knives. Disputes were settled with fisticuffs AFTER school (with most of the school in attendance). Once settled...participants often went on to become friends, not enemies to be stalked down and shot up via a "drive by". School shootings were virtually unknown.
***In many areas of the state that is the past or never.
You go back far enough...and it was the general rule more places than not. People had more respect for life and their fellow man. I can't tell you exactly what happened, but its not that way now.


***I respect your opinion (hey whats wrong with being an old fart? old farts rule :anamatedbanana ).
Nothing, I am one. Didn't ever expect to live this long...but managed to despite myself. ;-)

In actuality I think your arguments are supporting my argument. Any OC would have to structured such that local jurisdictions could limit it. No?
I would like to see restrictions be the same as for CC, except I want the Business sector to accept and recognize that they would benefit by having "options" to prohibit carry (concealed or OC) in their establishments. Instead of having a "one size fits all" law/signage...I propose that a simple 6" X 6" ghost-buster type sticker be adopted to place in entryways. This would require NO change of the current 30.06 sign and would only take the amount of space equal to a "hand print" on a window or door.

Not ALL businesses are interested in preventing law abiding citizens from entering their premises. Texas is not ALL big cities and Urban environment. Using my proposed method...would allow a business to restrict NO ONE by simply not posting any signage, OR they could prevent only OCer's by posting only the ghost-buster sign, and lastly...forbid CC and OC by posting the current 30.06 sign as well as the small OC sign (would probably fit into the corner of the 30.06 sign).

I can't imagine why business owners wouldn't want options....or why legislators would write a bill any other way.


EDIT: I'd be interested in your view on this question Flint (?) as its seems to be a key factor (at least to me). Were I in old Sugarland this wouldn't be an issue, but in new Sugarland the mocha latte soccer moms would have the SWAT coming faster than you can spit (and yes my wife are one).
I don't doubt that some of this would go on for awhile. Eventually, one of two would happen.
1. Police and the citizenry will recognize it is not an issue....and ignore it for the most part.
2. It will be so inconvenient/distressing for the person OCing that the problem becomes self correcting (they stop).

I am of the opinion that #1 would be the result. Either that...or I have so misread the pulse of LEO and the average Joe out there...that I don't realize just how unacceptable firearms are in our "modern" society.
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Conagher
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by Conagher »

Gentlemen,

May I kindly ask that we get back to the point of the post: Suggestions on how we get this item as a sanctioned TSRA legislative project for the 2011 legislative session?

Thanks & Have a Nice Day!

Conagher
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03Lightningrocks
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

Conagher wrote:Gentlemen,

May I kindly ask that we get back to the point of the post: Suggestions on how we get this item as a sanctioned TSRA legislative project for the 2011 legislative session?

Thanks & Have a Nice Day!

Conagher
:iagree:

I think some of the questions brought up in this thread being addressed would go a long way toward get something passed. Simply brushing off these concerns as insignificant won't get it done.

My main concern is having more 30:06 signs popping up due to the fear instilled by a sudden increase in folks walking around with guns on their sides. Simply stating that this won't happen does nothing to alleviate my concerns. Build the legislation in a way to decrease this possibility.

My secondary concern is having the wrong person toting a firearm with no training or education what so ever. This one is harder to address but could be addressed somewhat by imposing some regulations or licensing to open carry. Of coarse this then get's into the whole debate about the BOR's but it is an issue none the less.

Those would be my suggestions...
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by tarkus »

Conagher wrote:Gentlemen,

May I kindly ask that we get back to the point of the post: Suggestions on how we get this item as a sanctioned TSRA legislative project for the 2011 legislative session?

Thanks & Have a Nice Day!

Conagher
Concealed carry is a lot like closeted homosexuality. Out of sight, out of mind. Don't ask, don't tell.

It's true that open homosexuality (and gay pride parades) generate a lot of knee jerk reactions in the short term but I don't think anyone can deny the long term positive effects for gay rights. I think homosexuals should be allowed to stay in the closet if they want and gun owners shouldn't be forced to open carry, but neither should American citizens be forced to hide in the shadows to enjoy their civil rights.

But I don't know how to get full gun rights as a sanctioned TSRA legislative project.
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

tarkus wrote:
Conagher wrote:Gentlemen,

May I kindly ask that we get back to the point of the post: Suggestions on how we get this item as a sanctioned TSRA legislative project for the 2011 legislative session?


Thanks & Have a Nice Day!

Conagher
Concealed carry is a lot like closeted homosexuality. Out of sight, out of mind. Don't ask, don't tell.

It's true that open homosexuality (and gay pride parades) generate a lot of knee jerk reactions in the short term but I don't think anyone can deny the long term positive effects for gay rights. I think homosexuals should be allowed to stay in the closet if they want and gun owners shouldn't be forced to open carry, but neither should American citizens be forced to hide in the shadows to enjoy their civil rights.

But I don't know how to get full gun rights as a sanctioned TSRA legislative project.
And back in circles we go again...LOL. I don't think your going to get your wishes Conagher. There is too much temptation for folks to "Platform" their emotions about the issue.
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by flintknapper »

03Lightningrocks wrote:[
I think some of the questions brought up in this thread being addressed would go a long way toward get something passed. Simply brushing off these concerns as insignificant won't get it done.
I agree, if I thought my posts were not germane to this thread...I would have opened yet another OC thread. :roll: ;-)
My main concern is having more 30:06 signs popping up due to the fear instilled by a sudden increase in folks walking around with guns on their sides.

A valid concern IMO, and I suspect if the public were not prepared for it...via media discussion, debate...etc, you would have just that. (might anyway for a period of time) Remember though, the number of persons who will actually Open Carry would be small, the "increase" you allude to... will be miniscule. Small exposure...small problem.
Simply stating that this won't happen does nothing to alleviate my concerns.

I am guessing your concerns are in regards to the possibility of PERMANENT damage, backlash, rejection.. to both CC and OC if this were to become law. If something else...please correct me and expand upon it.
Build the legislation in a way to decrease this possibility.
Absolutely. Here is a point we can all agree upon.
My secondary concern is having the wrong person toting a firearm with no training or education what so ever. This one is harder to address but could be addressed somewhat by imposing some regulations or licensing to open carry. Of coarse this then get's into the whole debate about the BOR's but it is an issue none the less.
This one is a stickler for me too. I admit I am torn here... between the idealogical and the practical.
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by flintknapper »

03Lightningrocks wrote:
flintknapper wrote:
03Lightningrocks wrote:I was not joking or scoffing....
Yes, you were. Unless you will now claim semantics.

No I wasn't! Are you a LIAR???? NO???? Then don't accuse me of being one. Thanks for your courtesy!
i also believe the same situation exists today. People who live in very large areas such as DFW or Houston are going to be more wary of open carry than people living in smaller rural areas. Again, I am not saying either opinion is right or wrong.
Please elaborate.

Nothing to elaborate on. The statement speaks for itself...and is a fact.

Since we don't have legalized open carry i have nothing to base experience on
.
Then this speaks to the need to keep an "open mind" OR look to other states for information/statistics that might shed some light on the subject. Even if the situation is not exactly the same as with Texas, there must be certain things we can "glean" from it.
Yes...and keeping an open mind is even more important for the folks who want to achieve open carry. So far i don't see this as the case with them. They seem to take the stance of "it's my way or no way".
I have my concerns and having concerns seems threatening to some in the open carry movement. Instead of feeling threatened and insulting folks who have concerns, maybe they would be better served to address the concerns. Calling folks "ant-gun" and "Brady supporters" does nothing more in my mind than marginalizing the group who is behind this movement. Drawing parallels to other rights in the BOR serves no purpose when the rights you are trying to parallel aren't an immediate threat to my life or my loved ones if misused.
There is simply too much here to address, except to say: If that is your position....fine, I accept that as your opinion. I agree with parts of it, not with others.

Glad to see you could find some common ground with a city slicker.

Playing games with peoples comments on forums(yes...I saw the thread where I was accused of comparing OC to wearing swastika's... ;-) ) in an effort to discredit people also serves no purpose. It just makes the folks behind the movement look like nuts with zero credibility. This is not said so much in reference to anything you have posted, ,

Good, because I have said nothing of the sort, nor made inferences of the same. I recommend you PM those who did author the things you find offensive.

Again...you use wording that is inappropriate. And i noticed you cropped out part of my comment that would have answered this question for you. better still, it would make your question unnecessary. Playing more games??? I don't find it OFFENSIVE. So there is no need in attempting further communications with misguided individuals.


I typically read your responses and posts with a bit of respect and interest for what you have to say. It is meant more for the benefit of folks in "the movement", that are sure to be reading this thread.
I don't know what "movement" you are speaking of. I stand alone in my presentation of the convictions and opinions I have shared here.

The open carry movement...but then you actually knew that...didn't ya...LOL ;-) . Playing some games with semantics of your own here?
Flint.

What is it with you...and this "game playing" thing?

I am a plain spoken person, always have been. My questions are sincere and direct, if you do not have answers...say so, but please stop accusing of "game playing" and semantics.

I have no idea what "Open Carry Movement" you are referring to or how in the world you would associate me with them. It is an honest question.....I will ask again: What movement/organization/whatever... are you talking about. Be specific, give me names, links, SOMETHING.

I have no agenda here, just personal opinions. Is the "movement" you speak of HERE? If so, SAY SO, there is nothing wrong with plain talk and disagreement. If I am the source of your objections say that too, it wouldn't be the first time in my life I was called out on the carpet.

So....whatcha got? I don't have time in my life for "games".
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by Keith B »

OK folks, please stay on topic. Please answer the OP's question and get back on track or it will be locked.
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

flintknapper wrote: I have no idea what "Open Carry Movement" you are referring to
OK...on the chance that you really are having trouble with this....The one that this whole darned thread is addressing.

Kieth and the OP have both requested we get on topic. I will be complying with those wishes at this point.
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by tarkus »

03Lightningrocks wrote:And back in circles we go again
If you don't like it when people circle back ON TOPIC in the "Positive" thread you are invited to post your anti opinions in the "Negative" topic instead of continuously trying to derail this one.

Here you go. http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... =7&t=22976" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Back to ON TOPIC discussion, I think open carry may have a short term negative effect (like passing the CHL law had a negative effect in the short term) but I'm convinced it will have a long term positive effect for the right to keep and bear arms as Americans get more accustomed to seeing guns carried by normal people who aren't wearing uniforms.
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

tarkus wrote:
Conagher wrote:Gentlemen,

May I kindly ask that we get back to the point of the post: Suggestions on how we get this item as a sanctioned TSRA legislative project for the 2011 legislative session?


Thanks & Have a Nice Day!

Conagher
It's true that open homosexuality (and gay pride parades) generate a lot of knee jerk reactions in the short term but I don't think anyone can deny the long term positive effects for gay rights. I think homosexuals should be allowed to stay in the closet if they want and gun owners shouldn't be forced to open carry, but neither should American citizens be forced to hide in the shadows to enjoy their civil rights.

But I don't know how to get full gun rights as a sanctioned TSRA legislative project.
;-)
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by tarkus »

If you're a TSRA member and support open carry, please write to Alice Tripp.
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by waffenmacht »

I will keep my reply very simple. I believe law-abiding citizens have the right to keep and bear arms. Whether concealed or not... That should be a personal choice, not a government requirement. I have yet to see other states that allow OC be referred to as "The Wild West".
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by ninjamedic2293 »

Initialy at least I think the only chance that you have to get OC passed is licensed carry. So I think aside from the tactical considerations and political capital that would be spent fighting for OC, the main concern seems to be the knee-jerk response of the general public leading to increased posting of 30.06 compliant sings. Before you can push for OC you must determine how to best address this issue. Personally I think the easiest way to combat this is to not tie OC to 30.06. Either require a second sign (which like 30.06 would help discourage bussiness from posting a big unsightly sign, and forced with posting two signs might even decrease the posting of 30.06 as a result), or (more probably) allow the gun buster signs to suffice initially. Big industry for one is definatly going to fight the need to post two seperate signs and I am not sure how to word the bill to allow gun buster signs to suffice for prohibiting open carry on private property. Maybe someone else can chime in.
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Re: Texas Open Carry – Positive

Post by srothstein »

Conagher wrote:May I kindly ask that we get back to the point of the post: Suggestions on how we get this item as a sanctioned TSRA legislative project for the 2011 legislative session?
I think the way to get this on TSRA's calendar is to convince enough TSRA members that it is an important enough issue to address. As Charles has pointed out, TSRA does respond to its membership's desires.

So, how do you convince the membership it is important? Look at the resistance that you have encountered and figure out ways to combat the resistance. Then look at the ways to get the law passed, including understanding that it may take more than one session and more than one law passed to get this implemented.

From what I have read, the two largest areas of resistance are the question of who would be allowed to carry openly and the possible bad effects of allowing it (more anti-gun postings and legislation are the primary effects I saw).

Are you willing to accept starting with licensed open carry only? Try working on getting the law that just removes the requirement to conceal for a CHL holder. After a few years with this, you could work on allowing unlicensed open carry, then after a few more years, Alaska style carry. I think this plan would be workable and get more poeple interested in supporting you.

But, in all honesty, I have not figured out how to address the fears of a backlash. I do not believe it will happen, and I have not been able to figure out how to convince people the effects are truly being over-exaggerated. We tend to see the people on the extremes, and forget that the average person simply does not care. They will not carry but they don't care if you do. I don't expect a big backlash, but I could very well be wrong. You will need to handle this issue to get TSRA to support you. Understandably, they will not do anything to jeopardize the gains made, nor would I want them to.
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