Locking up guns around kids - security vs access

[neilp]

I'm looking for some advice. My 12 year old son lives with me. As is typical of kids his age he has curiosity that leads him to break the rules from time to time. Just like me at that age ; -) He has been to the range with me so he knows what a pistol does, and knows basic gun safety. I still worry about him getting into my pistols when he is at home on his own.

I have a small safe that I keep the pistols in. I keep the mags in the original cases nearby with the ammo along side. All of this is in a locked closet. Not that the closet is very secure - 5 secs with a screwdriver and I was in there with no tell tales. The safe has a keypad and key access. I keep a key to the closet and safe hidden just in case of need.

I have read recommendations to store ammo locked up too. My safe is just big enough for both of my pistols, no room for the ammo. I'm on a budget right now but if needed I can find a few $$ for a safety issue. I have the padlock things that came with the pistols but do not use them at this time. I have read many times that ammo should be locked up separately from the guns, and at present I do not keep a loaded mag ready to go. I'm looking at getting a more secure place to keep the ammo

I think if I need my pistol in a HD situation I would have some difficulty getting to it quickly enough as it is. I'd have to: unlock the closet; load a mag; unlock the safe; load a mag and cock the pistol. I just timed myself. From my desk to loaded pistol ready to go in 1 min 15 secs, in a no stress situation. Not very useful in most circumstances I suspect.

I'd be very interested to hear what other parents have done and what compromises they have made between access and security.

[tboesche]

Neilp,
I can only offer advise that worked for me. As my kids were growing up, I made a point of not hiding my guns, nor treating them as though they were something "bad". What I did was teach my kids from the very beginning that if they ever wanted to see daddy's gun, all they had to do was to ask. I never denied them when they asked as I did not want to have their curiousity peaked. We would then, together, unload the gun and together make sure that it was empty before I let my kids handle it. They were also taught from the beginning that if they ever touched one of daddys guns with out my permission that there would be swift and sever repurcussions.

They learned very early what gun safety was, how to handle a gun in a safe manner and what to do if they ever found one "just laying about". Actually happened once. I had come home and removed my gun, cleared it and placed it on the kitchen table for cleaning. I had sat on the couch and asked my middle daughter to get me a beer. She stopped in her tracks at the kitchen door and said, "Daddy, your gun is on the table, is it ok for me to go in the kitchen?"

My kids are now 28, 22 and 17. Only my 17 year old daughter has become an avid shooter, and that is fine. They are free to make their own choices and I love them just the same. She now has her own Rifle and pistol and now a shotgun on layaway.

Now back to your issue- your son is 12 and that is a tough age to start trying to teach a lesson that they don't really want to learn. But you have to try right? I would suggest that you only keep the gun you have with you loaded and ready to go, and if you think it will work for you try what I did. Teach your boy to respect both the gun AND your rules concerning them.

Maybe get him his own .22 to learn on. Keep it unloaded and the ammo for it locked up. Enforce the idea that it is his but that he has to be respectfull of your wishes concerning handling it.

Teach him to shoot, and teach him to be responsible. Some of the best times I have had are with my daughter at the range. Wouldn't trade them for anything.

Good luck with your boy. Let us know how things go.

[LaUser]

I've been looking for a small gun safe myself. I also know it is best to keep ammo separate from guns. However, for purposes of being safe around children and having reasonable access, I think a decent gun safe with the pistol inside and the magazine loaded but removed and locked in the safe is the way to go. It is locked up away from curious hands yet with the loaded magazine close by. Your son may know and practice good gun safety, but his friends may not. And there is no 100% guarantee that one of his friends will not get access to your gun(s) unless they are locked up. Texas has some harsh laws when it come to guns and kids.

A safe is a great insurance policy you pay for only once.

I am considering a GunVault model but they ain't cheap. $99 - $199 range for what I want. I am considering this
GunVault GV1000 Delux

[dleewo]

Neilp,
I can only offer advise that worked for me. As my kids were growing up, I made a point of not hiding my guns, nor treating them as though they were something "bad". What I did was teach my kids from the very beginning that if they ever wanted to see daddy's gun, all they had to do was to ask. I never denied them when they asked as I did not want to have their curiousity peaked. We would then, together, unload the gun and together make sure that it was empty before I let my kids handle it.

Interestingly, I just started to do that with my kids this past weekend. My kids are 7 and 4. My wife I have had a couple handguns from before they were born, but only recently started to use them again when we decided to apply for our CHLs. As a result, our kids have been hearing us talking about guns and were curious.

My 7-yr old daughter is also at the age where all of our private business gets broadcast to her friends in school and I wanted to pre-empt her talking about our guns to her friends, ensuring that she understood that it was a private "home" matter.

I also plan to let them see and handle the guns if they are curious and whenever they ask.

[particle]

I tend to follow the "a place for everything, everything in its place" mentality. When I come home, I always put my keys, wallet, and phone in the same place. When I got to bed, they go to my room with me and I place them on top of my gun safe. My suggestion to you - place the key to your gun safe on your key ring, and put the spare key somewhere hidden, like in the attic in a box of keepsakes. You'll only need that key if you lose your car keys, so it's okay if it's not immediately accessible. When you take your car keys out of your pocket, place them in your gun safe and lock it (surely there is enough room for a set of keys). This keeps the primary key with you when you leave the house, and safely locked away when you're home or step outside to mow, etc.

For the ammo - you can buy the old milsurp ammo cans from MidwayUSA and place the ammo in those. They are pretty cheap. I believe they are lockable with a padlock, and come in a wide variety of sizes. Or, just buy a plastic storage ammo container, and lock it with a padlock.

[frazzled]

The majority of items, and all ammo are in a locked footlocker/chest I've had since a kid. Its strong wood you would have to take an axe to, to open.

We have a keypad safe we bought for $50 were we keep the CHL items, some spare clips, and a revolver cannon She Who Must Be Obeyed can get to in case she has to run to the bedroom and doesn't have her CHL pistol (all she has to do is point and squeeze-no thoguth involved). Its a five number combo but can be easily opened in the dark in about three seconds. I know, I've done it.

This way there is a strong measure of safety, yet we have quick access. We have also taught the kids about firearms, getting adults, etc. but we'd rather be safe than sorry in this cirumstance.

[rthillusa]

In my mind, this is the most serious question you can ask yourself. Not everyone comes down the same way. Here is my experience. Before we had kids, I kept a loaded shotgun under the bed. When my daughter started walking, I unloaded it, put it away, except for hunting, and stored the ammunition separately. My fear of my kids getting into my guns was greater than my fear of a home invasion I might actually be able to do something about. That's just the way it was at my house. All my kids knew about guns, they all learned to shoot, they learned firearm safety, almost to an obsession, and we went hunting when we had the chance - and the guns were always unloaded and put away.

I have a brother in law who had three boys. They lived to hunt from when they could walk. All of them hunted, they all knew guns, gun safety, what a gun would do to a living animal. They all knew what a gun could do. How to handle a gun. If any kids in the world were ever 'gun safe' these guys were. Dad comes home from hunting, thinks his rifle is empty and he sets it against the wall and goes in to tell his wife he is home. He is going to put the gun up, but just goes back into the bedroom for a second. His 10 year old son picks the rifle up and without even thinking points it across the room and without realizing it, pulls the trigger. There was a round in the chamber Dad missed. Brother is sitting on the couch watching cartoons and takes a 30-06 in the gut and dies in his Dad's lap on the way to the hospital. Sweet Jesus, how do you ever live with that. It destroyed the family. It destroyed my brother in law.

See, here is what I think. Kid's minds are not fully formed. (My wife says men's brains are never fully formed either :) That's why they can't make a legal contract and can't do lots of stuff adults are allowed to do. You can tell a child 10,000 times not to do something. You can train them, make them practice and preach to them until you are hoarse. But their powers of reasoning are not fully formed. They are not held accountable for their actions under law because they do not have the full power to reason things out and always make the right decision. Kids watch their parents and imitate them.

So does having a loaded gun nearby in the house make you safe from a home invasion or robbery? Well, here is our experience. Cousin Mike is married to Gene. He makes good money and has lots of nice things. His house is robbed while they are out one day. They get an alarm system and Gene gets a gun and keeps it loaded, in the dresser. Almost a year later, two people, a man and a woman, well dressed, clean cut looking, knock on the door just about sunset. They flash a badge and say they are police officers investigating the burglary that occurred a while back. Mike lets them in. They pull pistols and say, this is a robbery, we want your jewelry and money. Gene is just coming down the hall and sees the two as he enters the living room. They see him. He turns and runs back to get his gun. They drop him in the hall before he ever has chance to fire. They leave. They did not come to murder, they had just come for the money and fled after the shooting. (They were caught and both got life without parole)

My thinking is this way. What are the odds? What are the odds that my home will be invaded - extremely small. If it is, what are the odds that I would be able to wake up from a sleep, find my pistol and be an effective opponent to someone already fully alert, high on adrenaline and God knows what else - again, the odds are not in my favor. I'm not advocating roll over and die, I will fight, but I am just being realistic that the odds of me making an effective defense in that situation are not good.

One more story. My nephew Chris walked up to the 7-11 one summer evening for a soda pop and a pack of smokes. On the way out, he was jumped from behind by some gang bangers that wanted his jacket. He never saw them coming, they hit him from behind and took him down. When he fought back, they shot and killed him. He was not armed, but even if he had been, he never would have had a chance to pull it. I sat with his mom at Parkland while they harvested his organs.

Protect my family - you betcha, or die in the effort, but here is a news flash - you know those guys that attack women. Well, they don't attack them when you are around. They wait until the woman is alone and defenseless because they are cowards. Yeah -I got some stories to back that up to.

On the other hand, what are the odds that one of my kids or grand-kids, those active inquisitive, nosey, snoopy, always active busy wonderful little minds is going to sooner or later get hold of Dad's or PaPa's firearm and start trying to imitate TV or Dad or Papa - and I'd say the odds are pretty good unless it is locked up tight.

So my shotguns and rifles stay locked up and the ammunition is in the garage. My new semi-auto is unloaded and locked up in a case and the ammunition is stored separately.

I have completed my CHL training and the application is in my desk drawer ready to be mailed and still, there it sits and I don't know why I don't mail it. I just keep running the calculus in my mind. What are the odds that even if I carried the rest of my life, 24/7, that I would ever find myself in a situation that I could not back away from, or de-escalate, or make an effective defense in some other way and where I would actually be able to draw and make effective use of even a loaded, cocked and ready to fire weapon. I'm no statistician but I expect I am much more likely to be struck by lightening or a falling meteor. Maybe if I lived a different life style, or in a different part of town, but not here, and not this life. I'm more likely to die from boredom.

I know that I will mail the form, because it gives me an option to choose. But I'm still keeping all the firearms locked up unless or until there is some compelling, immediate reason to do otherwise. Others will choose differently and I can respect that. May God give you wisdom to make your choice correctly.

[Frost]

Well i don't have kids, but if i did my weapon would be either on my hip or in a GunVault style quick access safe.

My 2¢

[hheremtp]

I am considering a GunVault model but they ain't cheap. $99 - $199 range for what I want. I am considering this
GunVault GV1000 Delux

True, 100-200$ is not cheap, however think of it this way, how much do you think it would cost you in legal fees if a child was shot in your home with your gun, not to mention the mental anguish and guilt that you would feel.

[jorge]

It's safer to lock up the kids. That way you don't have to worry about other household dangers like kitchen knives, scissors, other sharp objects, heavy objects, stoves, ovens, other burn dangers, electrical appliances, electrical outlets, poisonous household chemicals, toilets, tubs, other drowning hazards, etc.

[CompVest]

+1

[bryang]

+2

-geo

[Medino]

The cheapest safety for your kids is to make sure you teach them to respect the guns and to never mess with them unless an adult is around. Myself and my younger siblings never had much of a problem with that as we started at an early age by being taught right from wrong. I had taken my first deer before i was 10 so i have been around guns for a while. Starting with a BB or pellet gun will help work out the mystery of the guns and if they do mess up they will be less likely to hurt someone or something. Make sure to take them shooting as well to further reinforce the any verbal lessons along with a safety course which is helpful.

We had several long guns in a closet that a 2 year old could open since i was born never having an issue. But then again if it is big an heavy it is not as fun as a smaller pistol which was always hidden somewhere in my parent's closet.

As far as access goes it is all a matter of practice. My CHL instructor told us to practice daily if possible drawing you pistol and training yourself for an incident. Remember it may not be broad daylight when you need to use you gun so practice and decide how secure it needs to be.

[flb_78]

I grew up with a 5 tier rifle rack in my bedroom with 5 long guns in it. There was no ammo with it though.

If I had kids, I would most likely keep them in cases and unloaded except for my daily carry. It is at my side 23hours and 45minutes a day.

[Excaliber]

I've been looking for a small gun safe myself. I also know it is best to keep ammo separate from guns. However, for purposes of being safe around children and having reasonable access, I think a decent gun safe with the pistol inside and the magazine loaded but removed and locked in the safe is the way to go. It is locked up away from curious hands yet with the loaded magazine close by. Your son may know and practice good gun safety, but his friends may not. And there is no 100% guarantee that one of his friends will not get access to your gun(s) unless they are locked up. Texas has some harsh laws when it come to guns and kids.

A safe is a great insurance policy you pay for only once.

I am considering a GunVault model but they ain't cheap. $99 - $199 range for what I want. I am considering this
GunVault GV1000 Delux

IMHO, the GunVault you're looking at is an excellent solution. I've had one of their earliest models for well over a decade, and it is still working fine. The tactile combination design makes it very usable in the dark, and the mounting system is difficult to defeat without tools if it is secured to a solid surface.

Be aware that using the higher security option of double digit elements (requiring two buttons to be pushed at the same time) in the combination may reduce your ability to open it successfully first time every time under stress.