Locking up guns around kids - security vs access

[A-R]

In my mind, this is the most serious question you can ask yourself. Not everyone comes down the same way. Here is my experience ... Others will choose differently and I can respect that. May God give you wisdom to make your choice correctly.

rthillusa, that was a very well written post. And I have a great amount of respect for you for writing such personal details and alternate viewpoints on this board.

I don't necessarily agree with everything you wrote, obviously. But you raise some very important points.

I have two young children and have had my CHL for 10-plus years. When my first child was too young to crawl/walk, I didn't worry about the guns much. Just kept them on a high shelf. But now that my oldest is three, I dropped $500-plus on a decent safe with digital combo lock from Academy. It holds my long guns, my pistols, and my ammo. I know you're supposed to keep the guns and ammo separate, but that is a logistical difficulty for me - not to mention rendering the guns useless in an admittedly unlikely, but still possible, home invasion scenario. My next step is likely something akin to a "Gun Vault" that I can lock up near my bed so I have quick access at night if I need it. Right now the big safe is in my closet and I can access my pistol, shotgun, or AR carbine within about 20 seconds in the dead of night. Probably fast enough, but before kids I slept with a gun in the bedside table drawer. I'd like that kind of access again.

I plan to teach both of my children about guns when they're old enough. For now, I simply refer to them as "Daddy's tools" and that seems to placate the 3-year-old. But I very much agree with your assessment that - regardless of what you teach your children - their minds are simply not developed to the point to correctly choose right from wrong on their own 100% of the time. So guns MUST be locked up around kids, IMHO. Unless you NEVER let them out of your sight, which is simply not humanly possible. A perfect example of this is my 3-year-old, a very cautious little girl who heeds our advice about various "dangers" very well. But the other day she bolted into a parking lot despite our warnings and shouts to stop. No harm done, but it is a perfect example that no matter how well you TRAIN your youngsters, there will always be that unforseen variable. Children are not robots. No amount of training or teaching will ensure their safety 100% of the time. Locking up your guns is the best available prevention against children accessing your guns.

Certainly there are other dangers in the home other than guns. But guns are a very AVOIDABLE danger, which makes ignoring the danger all the more "wrong" IMHO.

[CHLSteve]

They did not come to murder

Really? Is that why they showed up with loaded guns?

More on-topic, here's what a friend of mine does. I don't know how well it works, but...

They have two children, 14 & 10. They keep most of the guns loaded in the gun safe, but in their bedroom they keep a loaded gun ready to go. The catch is they have a keyed lock on their bedroom door. Whenever either parent leaves the room, the door is locked. That's it. Nobody gets into the locked room with the gun except for mom & dad.

[WildBill]

A safe is a great insurance policy you pay for only once.

I am considering a GunVault model but they ain't cheap. $99 - $199 range for what I want. GunVault GV1000 Delux

Considering the possible consequences of not having one, it sounds pretty cheap to me. I always tell people that the price of a good safe is less than a good gun. I bought my safe [for $500] only after having $2500 worth of stuff stolen during a burglary.

[Eddie2612]

I go back and forth on this.. I keep a magazine loaded with corbon NEXT to my glock 19 LOCKED inside a safe.. Im paranoid - I dont want to not load the magazine, but I dont want the gun loaded.. it is behind the locked safe door, but I still go back and forth.. 2 German Shephards should keep the BG busy while I get one in the hopper... but this really does give me fits..

[Eddie2612]

by the way.. I mean that I worry about my kids getting into the guns.. Not the BG.. Im going to take the "if you want to know, ask.. If you would like to see one - ask" .. with 3 boys I think that is the way to go.. once they see what a gun will do I think they will have enormous respect for them..

[RiveraRa]

Teach the kid and keep the gun on your hip.

[Totally Frustrated]

If I were you I would lock the Ammo up as well.
Your son may not be able to get to your weapons, but you wouldn't want the ammo going over to Johnny's house, in case they could get to Johnny's dads guns.
Just my $.02

[Aggie_engr]

As others have posted, my three other siblings and I grew up around guns. Dad always had his shotgun and pistol loaded under the bed and we knew it but we knew we would face a harsh whooping if we ever messed with them. I think the best gun handling that can be taught is through pellet/bb guns. Although pops never bought us .22's, we got pellet guns when we were 10 and shotguns at 18. I think we got most of our gun handling safety from toting around our pellet guns hunting birds out in the pastures together (no one ever got shot and we never had any close calls that I can remember).

On another note, my cousins are around guns all the time, my uncle usually has his .22 mag or shotgun in his farm truck(loaded, not one in the pipe). These are kids ranging from 6 to 16 (there are 5 of them) and they frequently visit my gma's. I know she keeps a shotgun in the closet out in the living room and a .22 next to their bed and they don't touch em'. Probably the same reason we never messed with pop's guns.

I don't have kids so when I get home at the end of the day my gun and surefire get nightstand duty and they stay there until I strap it on again.

[neilp]

I appreciate all the posts.

For now I have reached a compromise I am happy with. My pistols are locked in a small safe, which has both number pad and key access. There is a loaded mag in the safe. I installed a keyed lock on my bedroom closet door. The safe and all the ammo are in my locked bedroom closet. I keep my keys in the closet door as a reminder to lock the closet when I leave home. I have a key to the closet and the safe very well hidden in the bedroom to facilitate emergency access if I am separated from my keys for any reason.

In the past I also had the guns locked with a padlock type lock inside the safe but I think that is unnecessary duplication.

Comments and criticisms welcomed.

[stevie_d_64]

Everyone here seems to have the same idea, and that is a good thing...

All I have ever done is lock everything that is not under my direct control up...One shotgun is loaded, nothing chambered in the safe for a relatively quick access...

And one pistol that I carry, or is within reach at all times wherever I am in the house...It's just part of my lifestyle, and I don't think about it much anymore...When guest come over they'll never know either...

[RECIT]

I grew up in the country so I had a BB gun by the time I was eight. And a .22 of my own at a young age too. My Dad always said, don't touch them unless you need them! There were several times in my younger years I NEEDED a rifle when my parents were not home. We lived on almost 40acres and had horses, cows, chickens, you name it at one time we had it. There was an aggressive large stray dog roaming my property and I called my Mom. She told me to lock up the dogs and cats if I could and stay in the house. I called her back a few minutes later saying it was chasing the chickens everywhere and had already killed a few. She said stay put! I then called her and told her the same dog had a large cut or gash on his neck and it was foaming at the mouth and stumbling around while trying to chase and bite our horses and cows in the pasture. She told me go get the rifle and take a shot. I was maybe ten years old and had to shoot a rabid rottweiler in our pasture or it would have killed or infected all of our animals and possibly harmed myself. If that rifle would have been locked up I would not have had a family dog, many cats left, or a heard of cattle at the rate this dog was biting other animals. I took the shot and dropped the dog where he stood, but I was aware of how to use it. Knew a weapon demanded respect and knew not to touch it unless I was told to or my parents were around. I now have plenty of firearms at my own house, but have no kids of my own. My bedroom door stays shut when company is over and all my guns are stored in a closet safe. I have a loaded pistol in my nightstand and a loaded pump shotgun leaning against the wall on my girlfriends side of the bed. Her shot gun is loaded but nothing in the chamber, she know the sound of a pump gun can be a deterrent enough. My pistol is loaded with one in the chamber and an extra mag next to it. I think everything but home defense should be locked up or stored anyway. Home defense should be accessible at all times and kids should be educated as soon as possible.

[UpTheIrons]

I appreciate everyone's comments thus far, but now I've got to muddy the waters with my own questions.

How do you store your guns and ammo separately and securely? Those of you who do so, do you have two lockable containers? A safe for the guns and a lockbox of some sort for ammo? Do you store them under the same lock (as in neilp's gun in the safe in the closet with ammo with the closet locked up, too), or store them in different areas?

After talking to several folks, I'm of the mind to put the 'big' safe in a room other than the master bedroom, since that tends to be the first place smash-n-grabbers go. I'm thinking of keeping a small safe (GunVault, Center of Mass, etc.) in the bedroom for the HD handgun and loaded mags, and the 'big' safe elsewhere.

Now, what to do with my other ammo? Put it in the big safe with the other guns, or find yet a third place in the house to lock it in? I think keeping it locked in the big safe with the other guns is OK, but I'm open to hearing why that may not be the best choice.

Edit to add: I've got 2 kids, 8 y.o girl (who's not too fired up about firearms yet) and 6 y.o. boy (who would be Rambo if we let him). They know The Rules front and back, and know to ask whenever they want to see my guns, but complete safety is still my main concern.

[particle]

edited out some clutter to keep the thread shorter... My comments are in "red".

So does having a loaded gun nearby in the house make you safe from a home invasion or robbery? ...Gene is just coming down the hall and sees the two as he enters the living room. They see him. He turns and runs back to get his gun they have no idea he's going for a gun, they probably just see him as trying to escape. They drop him in the hall before he ever has chance to fire. They leave. They did not come to murder Are you kidding me? If they had no intentions of murdering anyone, then why have guns?, they had just come for the money and fled after the shootingThat was probably their story to avoid the "premeditated" charge.... (They were caught and both got life without parole)

My thinking is this way. What are the odds?

One more story. My nephew Chris walked up to the 7-11 one summer evening for a soda pop and a pack of smokes. On the way out, he was jumped from behind by some gang bangers that wanted his jacket. He never saw them coming, they hit him from behind and took him down. When he fought back, they shot and killed him. He was not armed, but even if he had been, he never would have had a chance to pull it.

Protect my family - you betcha, or die in the effort, but here is a news flash - you know those guys that attack women. Well, they don't attack them when you are around. They wait until the woman is alone and defenseless because they are cowards. Yeah -I got some stories to back that up to.

What are the odds that even if I carried the rest of my life, 24/7, that I would ever find myself in a situation that I could not back away from, or de-escalate, or make an effective defense in some other way and where I would actually be able to draw and make effective use of even a loaded, cocked and ready to fire weapon. I'm no statistician but I expect I am much more likely to be struck by lightening or a falling meteor. Maybe if I lived a different life style, or in a different part of town, but not here, and not this life. I'm more likely to die from boredom.

Sir, how many times do you have to get struck by lightening to know you don't go outside in a thunderstorm? Gene, Chris, rape stories - what else do you need to convince you that "it" can happen to anyone? It's happend at least twice in your very own family...

[dicion]

edited out some clutter to keep the thread shorter... My comments are in "red".

So does having a loaded gun nearby in the house make you safe from a home invasion or robbery? ...Gene is just coming down the hall and sees the two as he enters the living room. They see him. He turns and runs back to get his gun they have no idea he's going for a gun, they probably just see him as trying to escape. They drop him in the hall before he ever has chance to fire. They leave. They did not come to murder Are you kidding me? If they had no intentions of murdering anyone, then why have guns?, they had just come for the money and fled after the shootingThat was probably their story to avoid the "premeditated" charge.... (They were caught and both got life without parole)

My thinking is this way. What are the odds?

One more story. My nephew Chris walked up to the 7-11 one summer evening for a soda pop and a pack of smokes. On the way out, he was jumped from behind by some gang bangers that wanted his jacket. He never saw them coming, they hit him from behind and took him down. When he fought back, they shot and killed him. He was not armed, but even if he had been, he never would have had a chance to pull it.

Protect my family - you betcha, or die in the effort, but here is a news flash - you know those guys that attack women. Well, they don't attack them when you are around. They wait until the woman is alone and defenseless because they are cowards. Yeah -I got some stories to back that up to.

What are the odds that even if I carried the rest of my life, 24/7, that I would ever find myself in a situation that I could not back away from, or de-escalate, or make an effective defense in some other way and where I would actually be able to draw and make effective use of even a loaded, cocked and ready to fire weapon. I'm no statistician but I expect I am much more likely to be struck by lightening or a falling meteor. Maybe if I lived a different life style, or in a different part of town, but not here, and not this life. I'm more likely to die from boredom.

Sir, how many times do you have to get struck by lightening to know you don't go outside in a thunderstorm? Gene, Chris, rape stories - what else do you need to convince you that "it" can happen to anyone? It's happend at least twice in your very own family...

Also, I can point out 2 issues there completely unrelated to gun ownership. Part of being safe & defending yourself is not just 'fighting back' AFTER getting into a situation, but also attempting to avoid said situation in the first place.

1) If an officer 'flashes' me a badge, I will tell them to raise it back up so I can actually read it. If anything seems screwy at all (where's their Impala or Crown Vic? Why does their vehicle not have 'exempt' tags), I will not let them in, first insisting to verify their badge. A legit officer will (should) completely understand this, and will probably gladly give you the information to verify they are who they say they are. I also recall that as of a new law, all police identification cards have to contain a number on them that you can call to verify.

Aha! Found it. Section 614.122 Government Code:

Sec. 614.122. PEACE OFFICERS.
(a) The law enforcement agency or other governmental entity that appoints or employs a peace officer shall issue an identification card to its full-time or part-time peace officers.
(b) The identification card must include:
(1) the full name of the peace officer;
(2) a photograph of the peace officer consistent with the peace officer's appearance;
(3) the name of the law enforcement agency or other governmental entity that appointed or employs the peace officer or that the peace officer was elected to serve;
(4) if applicable, the signature of the person appointing or employing the person as a peace officer on behalf of the law enforcement agency or other governmental entity;
(5) a brief description of the peace officer, including the peace officer's height, weight, and eye color;
(6) the thumbprint of the peace officer or a bar code with a unique identification label for the peace officer;
(7) the date the law enforcement agency or other governmental entity appointed or employed the peace officer;
(8) the date the law enforcement agency or other governmental entity issued the card to the peace officer; and
(9) a phone number operational 24 hours a day, seven days a week that a person may call to verify the validity of the identification card.

If they refuse or their ID does not meet these requirements, you CAN legally deny them entry completely, as they have not LEGALLY informed you that they are, indeed, peace officers. If they attempt to force their way in after your refusal, you are completely within your rights to defend yourself. Granted, thats how the law is. Reality is, you will probably spend a LONG time in Jail. FWIW IANAL.

Anyways, Next.

2) Situational awareness. If I'm alone, going to a stop-n-rob, You bet your ass I'm going to keep my eyes open, both upon approach, while I'm inside, and especially while I exit.
If there's a bunch of 'hoodlums' hanging out outside that you suspect are up to no good, call the police on the suspicious persons, and wait in your vehicle, or leave.

Personally, I wouldn't just abandon the stop-n-rob, because for all I know, the hoodlums are just waiting for me to leave so they can go rob the clerk. I'd wait until the cops showed up and checked them out first.

NOW, where a gun Could have assisted:

1a) I carry when I am at home, around the house, so if those fake 'officers' DID push their way in, In addition to the door I'd do my best to make sure they'd also have to force through a wall of .45ACP before getting to me. I wouldn't have to 'go get' the gun, I'd have it with me. If you aren't keen on the whole 'carrying a gun 24/7' thing, then maybe you could go get it before answering the door when unexpected visitors knock. Sure, answering the door when the girl scouts come around selling cookies with a 1911 OC'd in an OWB holster may scare off the girl scout, but it's completely legal. Plus, you can buy the cookies in front of any Kroger anyways.

Also, don't OPEN the door if you don't know who it is. Peepholes, Security Cameras, windows overlooking the front door. All valid ways of seeing who is there before opening it.

2a) Well, just plain wouldn't happen. If I didn't notice them, or they didn't show up until I was in the store, I'd call the police, or ask the clerk to. Then I would take a position of cover, with a clear view (and shot) of the door, and ready to draw, if needed, until they arrived.


If you do all this, will you look like the 'crazy guy, who thinks everyone wants to kill him'? Possibly. But you also will significantly reduce your chance of becoming a victim. If some potential armed robber hears that there's a 'guy who opens the front door armed with a gun, and has security cameras all around his house', you can bet that they're going to think 'PASS' when picking potential targets.

Sadly, this IS the world we live in today. You have to inform your family of such, and teach them to always pay attention.

[suthdj]

edited out some clutter to keep the thread shorter... My comments are in "red".

If they refuse or their ID does not meet these requirements, you CAN legally deny them entry completely, as they have not LEGALLY informed you that they are, indeed, peace officers. If they attempt to force their way in after your refusal, you are completely within your rights to defend yourself. Granted, thats how the law is. Reality is, you will probably spend a LONG time in Jail. FWIW IANAL.

If they don't have a search warrant or reasonable cause they have no right/need to enter your house. So just say no and talk to them through the chained door. I usually talk to anyone at the door with half my body behind it like I am leaning into it, it helps if you need to close it quickly and with some force as well as providing some cover.