Class III in Houston

[TDDude]

Has anyone successfully gone through the permitting process for getting a class III stamp in Houston? In reading through the application it seems that the trick is getting th locals to sign off on it.

Which office, HPD, Sherriff, or Constable did you use and how long did it take?

Building a full-auto M-4 cost the same as a standard AR-15. So, why not?? The fee costs less than a top quality match barrel.

Thanks.

[Cosmo 9]

From what I've read on here it seems like setting up a trust is the way to go. I'm sure the experts will chime in soon.

With ammo prices what they are I think a full auto BB gun is out of my reach

[dicion]

From what I've read, especially Harris County, It's easier to just go the Trust route.

Trusts don't require Signoffs by LEO, and you can have multiple members in the trust, that can take possession of the weapon under the umbrella of the Trust.

If you were to just get a Title 2 stamp issued in your name, only You can have possession of that firearm, not your wife, son, etc etc.

Personally, one day, I'm going to setup a trust for myself and the wife. Then I can get all the Title 2 weapons & items my little heart desires, without having to get a local LEO signoff.

[TDDude]

I've read about the trusts here as well. I guess I should also ask if anyone in the forum actually belongs to one.

I guess I need to pop over to the AR15 forum. It's just that this forum could almost be called the CHL'rs of Houston forum and is a great source for Houston issues & solutions.

[boomerang]

Building a full-auto M-4 cost the same as a standard AR-15. So, why not?? The fee costs less than a top quality match barrel.

Sorry. As an individual taxpayer you may not make or possess a machinegun that wasn't registered by May 19, 1986.

[WEC]

Building a full-auto M-4 cost the same as a standard AR-15. So, why not??

Well, I'm not a class 3 expert, but I believe that it's not quite that cheap for a civilian - as I understand it, you can only buy pre-86 registered sears or firearms, of which there's obviously a limited supply - and hence very, very pricey. I'm seeing M16s go for 10k - 15k these days over at subguns.com

+1. These days getting an M16/M4 for under 10k is a pretty unlikely venture.

Forget getting a CLEO signoff if you're not a family member or a BFF of said CLEO. Trust is probably the best way for an individual. If you have multiple people, I recommend going the LLC route.

The funny thing about registering a full-auto gun is that unless it is pre-assembled, you're actually registering the part of the gun that makes it full-auto. For example, there are plenty of cases where a person can convert a semi-auto lower to full-auto by using a DIAS (drop-in auto sear) or an LL (lightning link). For all intents and purposes, these parts are the actual "machine guns" in the ATF's eyes. And because people often spend $7000+ on these parts, they take them everywhere with them on their keychains or briefcase or what have you. It's a bit funny when you think about it - you're carrying a machine gun on your keychain.

[TDDude]

The funny thing about registering a full-auto gun is that unless it is pre-assembled, you're actually registering the part of the gun that makes it full-auto. For example, there are plenty of cases where a person can convert a semi-auto lower to full-auto by using a DIAS (drop-in auto sear) or an LL (lightning link). For all intents and purposes, these parts are the actual "machine guns" in the ATF's eyes. And because people often spend $7000+ on these parts, they take them everywhere with them on their keychains or briefcase or what have you. It's a bit funny when you think about it - you're carrying a machine gun on your keychain.

Well, there is a form from ATF that is for the manufacture of a full auto firearm and the choices are
1. Company Name or
2. Individual.

The form number is 5320.1. http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53201.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; If individuals weren't allowed under any circumstances to do this, why put it on the form? I can accept the answer so they can "Just Say No" but I passed the background for the CHL twice so why not this?

Basically the applicant lists the manufacturer and serial number of the lower that is to be built out and say what is planned. Nothing else is mentioned about registering parts. Perhaps the rules state otherwise but there are only two applications on the ATF website that I could find that apply to "special weapons such as silencers, short barreled shotguns and "machine guns" and both are only interested in the serial number that is on the lower. The weapon types are listed in definition 1, c.

M-A sells full auto lower kits (including the little spring loaded SEAR) for 90 bucks. Now why would they offer that as a sku if they never expected to sell any? I may be missing something but when the text reads something like "everything for a full auto lower", I figure that means everything.

Anyway, if there is a "trust" in Houston, I'd like to be a part of it. If that isn't an option and I have to set up my own, then does anyone know of an atty. with experience in this area?

Maybe I should just swing by Talon Arms here in Houston. I'm sure they can steer me in the right direction.

Grazi.

[Rugrash]

Call Robert at Talon Arms here in Houston at 713-529-2910 and I'm sure he'd be happy to answer any additional questions that you may have.

http://www.talonarms.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-Rug

[Rugrash]

Building a full-auto M-4 cost the same as a standard AR-15. So, why not?? The fee costs less than a top quality match barrel.

Sorry. As an individual taxpayer you may not make or possess a machinegun that wasn't registered by May 19, 1986.

This is why full auto guns for civilians are soooo expensive. Yes you are correct about the price of a new M-4 is the same as an AR-15, but that is for LE/military, not us normal people. Its a supply and demand thing. Here's another resource:

http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/clas ... w-sbr.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a FAQ that we worked on with a couple of guys over at TGT since we get these questions often, especially at gun shows since most people think suppressors and SBRs are illegal or that you need a special license to own etc.

-Rug

[WEC]

The form number is 5320.1. http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53201.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; If individuals weren't allowed under any circumstances to do this, why put it on the form? I can accept the answer so they can "Just Say No" but I passed the background for the CHL twice so why not this?

Applying as an individual is indeed allowed and can be accomplished. Just not in Houston/Harris County. Or, I would imagine, in any other middle to large metropolitan area with a population exceeding 250,000 people. Now if you lived in a remote county of Montana and you know your CLEO as "Ken" and not "yessir," then by all means, apply as an individual.

[TDDude]

Building a full-auto M-4 cost the same as a standard AR-15. So, why not?? The fee costs less than a top quality match barrel.

Sorry. As an individual taxpayer you may not make or possess a machinegun that wasn't registered by May 19, 1986.

This is why full auto guns for civilians are soooo expensive. Yes you are correct about the price of a new M-4 is the same as an AR-15, but that is for LE/military, not us normal people. Its a supply and demand thing. Here's another resource:

http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/clas ... w-sbr.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a FAQ that we worked on with a couple of guys over at TGT since we get these questions often, especially at gun shows since most people think suppressors and SBRs are illegal or that you need a special license to own etc.

-Rug

Now, that's an answer I can understand. I guess the application for manufacturing has to have the "individual" selection so they can simply deny it on that basis.

I'm not interested in paying $10k for something I can build in my garage.

[boomerang]

The form number is 5320.1. http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53201.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; If individuals weren't allowed under any circumstances to do this, why put it on the form?

Because individuals can make a SBR, for example, on a Form 1.

I can accept the answer so they can "Just Say No" but I passed the background for the CHL twice so why not this?

You can thank Reagan-era gun control.

[CleverNickname]

The form number is 5320.1. http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53201.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; If individuals weren't allowed under any circumstances to do this, why put it on the form? I can accept the answer so they can "Just Say No" but I passed the background for the CHL twice so why not this?

Two reasons:

1. Reactivating a DEWAT by a non-SOT is done with a form 1. A DEWAT is a DEactivated WAr Trophy, a machine gun that was registered and turned into a non-firing gun (typically by plugging the barrel or something similar). DEWATs were legal to register up until the law changed in 1968. It's legal to reactivate a DEWAT into a functional machine gun by filing a form 1, paying the $200 tax and then reversing whatever changes made it non functional (by attaching a new barrel or whatever).
2. Theoretically a non-SOT could manufacture a machine gun for sale to an LE agency. However, I don't think this has ever happened. There's really no reason to, considering there's plenty of class 2 manufacturers out there who'd be more than happy to sell an agency a gun. An LE agency could also make a machine gun themselves, tax free.

[CleverNickname]

The funny thing about registering a full-auto gun is that unless it is pre-assembled, you're actually registering the part of the gun that makes it full-auto. For example, there are plenty of cases where a person can convert a semi-auto lower to full-auto by using a DIAS (drop-in auto sear) or an LL (lightning link). For all intents and purposes, these parts are the actual "machine guns" in the ATF's eyes. And because people often spend $7000+ on these parts, they take them everywhere with them on their keychains or briefcase or what have you. It's a bit funny when you think about it - you're carrying a machine gun on your keychain.

With a DIAS or LL you're not registering anything. The DIAS or LL is already registered. Once the DIAS or LL is in your legal possession, you don't have to notify the ATF when you put it in a semi-auto AR15 receiver to get a functional machine gun.

And where are you hearing this keychain stuff? I've been involved in title II stuff since I got my first machine gun 7 years ago and I've never heard of anyone carrying their DIAS or LL around with them like that. Why would someone want to carry it around on their person where it could more easily get lost or damaged? Generally on a DIAS there's no hole anywhere to connect a keychain either.

Edit: Sorry AndyC, didn't edit my post quite correctly.