IFF (Identification - Friend or Foe)

[Excaliber]

There have been a number of discussions about the best way to avoid being shot by other good guys when a CHL holder uses a firearm to defend himself or others, and up until now I haven't seen a really viable good answer to the problem.

A new company headed by an active duty SWAT sergeant from a large city agency in one of our western states has come up with a small belt worn pouch that can be deployed with one hand into a very conspicuous diagonally worn banner with reflective lettering that communicates the wearer's status. There are versions for various law enforcement and security applications, and the product line includes a model for CHL holders. (The lettering is CCW due to advice the inventor reportedly received from Mas Ayoob on the most universally understood title). Details are available here.

I spoke at length to the inventor who told me that the LEO versions, which are only shipped to law enforcement agency addresses, are already in use with some large departments and elite federal agencies. I think the concept has merit.

I'll be interested to hear what my Forum brethren have to say about it.

[Hoi Polloi]

This guy might have liked that idea. He had a gun-wielding intruder crash into his house, threaten him, then run into his son's occupied bedroom. The intruder's gun was knocked under the bed and the homeowner held the intruder at gunpoint while on the phone with 911. The cops responded and shot the guy with the gun 6 times before realizing he was the good guy.

[cubbyjg]

I must say it is a nifty little device. I too always wondered what would be a good way to identify myself should something happen. I dont want to get shot by another CHL holder or LEO for that matter.

[Carry-a-Kimber]

This is the first time I have seen the CHL Sash brought up on this site without it being the butt of a joke.

[dubya]

Hmmm, I don't think I'd like "Armed" or "CCW" but the sash is pretty nice. "Single" or "Crossing Guard" might be nice.

Armed!!!???? Perhaps a bullseye would be better.

[LarryH]

It'll work just fine until the bad guys start wearing them.

If bad guys can steal police uniforms (and they do), stealing (or buying) sashes wouldn't be difficult for them.

[Excaliber]

This guy might have liked that idea. He had a gun-wielding intruder crash into his house, threaten him, then run into his son's occupied bedroom. The intruder's gun was knocked under the bed and the homeowner held the intruder at gunpoint while on the phone with 911. The cops responded and shot the guy with the gun 6 times before realizing he was the good guy.

That's a good example of how real the problem is.

It's not a far out circumstance - a severe risk of misidentification arises every time your weapon is drawn in the presence of others. That's as true for off duty and retired LEO's as it is for CHL holders.

[Excaliber]

It'll work just fine until the bad guys start wearing them.

If bad guys can steal police uniforms (and they do), stealing (or buying) sashes wouldn't be difficult for them.

Yup, although I don't remember seeing a lot of police uniform attired suspects in the crimes I investigated or in the crime scenes videos I've looked at lately. Bad guys can acquire badges too. That doesn't make police badges useless, but possession of one certainly doesn't guarantee one's initial treatment as an LEO by responding officers, even if you are one.

I'm not aware of any cases where bad guys misidentified themselves as police in a gunfight situation and hung around long enough to try to run that act past responding officers, so I don't discount the viability of the identification sash concept on those grounds.

Keep in mind that displaying an identification sash or doing anything else to try to visibly identify yourself as a good guy does not make you an automatic good guy in the eyes of the responding officers. A bad guy wearing a good guy sash or even a badge will get shot just as quickly as a good guy as soon as he starts to turn toward officers with gun in hand. I'd like to explore ways to keep this from happening to a genuine good guy until he can work with officers to deescalate so everyone can communicate.

Here's the reality: If you draw in self defense and you're holding a gun when officers arrive, no matter what you're wearing or displaying you're going to get to drop your $1600 super special doo daddy equipped, dehorned, and polished 1911 on the concrete, kiss the pavement, and experience some of the latest nifty pain compliant restraint holds and handcuffing techniques until the guys in blue get things sorted out.

The objective here is to very visibly mark you in a manner that has a reasonable chance of causing an officer to consider that you just might be a good guy instead of reflexively firing at the "guy with the gun." You want to get to the point where you can communicate to the officer what actually happened without acquiring any extra holes you didn't have in you when all this started.

I don't suggest that the product under discussion is the ideal solution to the problem. I'm still kicking the idea around. I just think it's better than anything else I've come across so far, and I'm very open to better ideas which may be shared if we start talking about it.

My purpose in bringing it up is that this concept gives us a starting point more viable than the oft scorned CHL badges for opening a discussion and moving it forward.

[Purplehood]

The whole issue of IFF is a very tough nut to crack. Personally I would feel silly with the sash thingie, but it just might be the thing that gives an LEO a life-saving pause.

[Excaliber]

The whole issue of IFF is a very tough nut to crack. Personally I would feel silly with the sash thingie, but it just might be the thing that gives an LEO a life-saving pause.

I'm not keen on the fashion statement it makes either. It also clearly fails the CDI (chicks dig it) test . However, I've looked at a number of the alternatives over the years and haven't found any I like better (or less worse).

Here are some things various agencies and groups I'm familiar with have tried with limited success, and the challenges discovered in using them:

1. Arm bands - Not much room for ID wording, small, easily blocked from view by body angle or nearby people or objects. Proper orientation would be critical to make sure all the letters showed in the right directions during an incident - not easy to arrange when you're holding a gun on someone who may still try to kill you.

2. Lightweight stretchable nylon vests - Practical to carry, good ID performance - but how do you put one on while holding someone at gunpoint? (The sash was purposely designed to be activated with just the support hand to address this issue.)

3. Baseball caps with front and rear ID - Has some utility in a stop or a raid, but where do you carry the thing when in normal civilian attire? Would CCW or CHL lettering of a size that fits on a ball cap make any difference? Maybe one with blacked out LED's that would light up and flash when activated to really attract attention would do the job....(Just kidding!)

As Purplehood observed, IFF is a tough nut to crack with no obvious or easy answers I know of, but it's a very real problem that needs a good solution.

Put your thinking caps on.

[Liberty]

Where would one keep such a thing, We all see what what CHL carriers carry as their daily carry; guns, knives, bugs spare mags, keys and pepper spray..

Its alright, I guess, for those who are willing to carry a man purse. allthough its not a bad place to pin that big CHL badge on.

[JJVP]

There is already a post on this subject here:

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[yerasimos]

Good topic for discussion.

One thing that was taught to me was to avoid turning the body in a 360 degree arc with a gun in hand, and instead keep the handgun pointed toward the known, potential or former threat while one scans by turning their head right and left as much as one's neck mobility allows. This is not perfect from a scanning standpoint, but turning 360 degrees with a handgun in hand when other armed individuals (police or otherwise) are arriving on scene would not be a good thing. I would really want to have it placed on the ground or in my holster by the time the first responders arrive, though I concede it may not always work that way.

If one is holding an attacker at gunpoint, and the police come up from behind (or someone is otherwise challenged), one would be better off with the gun pointed at the threat rather than turning around with a handgun in hand. If ordered to drop the weapon, one can do so while facing away from the police or whoever is challenging him from behind. Also, I am of the persuasion that unless I am at home or I have to hold someone at gunpoint (preferably behind cover/concealment), I would seek to remove myself from the immediate incident scene and holster my weapon before dialing 911.

To reaffirm what some others have said, I would not expect to have the presence of mind to remember to put on a Good-Guy sash, vest, cap, or badge, and my belt space is already pretty crowded. I would think that my mental tasking would be better used for the visual scan that should pick up anyone (friend or foe) approaching from the forward 180 degrees or so, or to find cover/concealment.

This sort of thing would not be a bad thing to rehearse/role-play using inert blue-guns and a friend or two.

[Sasnakra]

Personally, I think the sash is not the answer...but then again, "How many Ms. Utah or Ms. Florida's have been mistakenly shot by the police"?

[Beiruty]

Best IFF system, is an electronic device issued by the ID Authority issuing your CHL. Responding LEO and optionally CHLer would be issued a special hi-tech sunglasses (HUD),that intgrates a scanner and fiber-optic projector, projecting a Tag on said sunglasses and IDing the CHLer on the scene.A further refinement, said means (ID device) is integrated on said CHLer' firearm.

Just Fast forward to 2110.