IFF (Identification - Friend or Foe)

[Hoi Polloi]

In the case I linked above, 911 had been called, but the information that the homeowner had the guy at gunpoint didn't make it from dispatch to the responding police who saw a guy with a gun and shot 6 times before realizing he was the good guy. I think loudly proclaiming who you are without moving, especially without moving toward the police, would be the best course of action in that type of scenario where you're in a confined space and the officers will be able to hear you before seeing you.

"Police! Help! I'm the homeowner and I need help! His gun is under the bed and I have him at gunpoint! I need help!" Keeping in mind not to give any details on the events (he broke in, he pointed his gun at me, etc) before talking to a lawyer.

[yerasimos]

Suppose one has to draw and/or discharge their handgun to defend themselves. After he has won the fight (or at least its most obvious phase), what should happen next? And in what sequence?

I came up with these items:
*Scan/reassess the threat
*Scan/assess the immediate environment for additional threats, friendlies, arriving first responders, etc
*Scan and reload the weapon as needed
*Scan/self-assessment for injury
*Get to cover/concealment if available, or holster the weapon and get some distance away from the scene
*Call 911 to summon first responders to the incident scene, identify yourself, tell them you are armed and what you look like/where you are, etc
*Render self-care or care for friendlies as needed

Where would a Good-Guy sash/cap/badge/vest fit among these items?

I reckon that the greatest risk of good-on-good gunfire is immediately after weapons are drawn and shots are fired. That risk persists to some degree or another as long as the GG is out in the open with a handgun in hand. I reckon the risk is best mitigated by seeking cover/concealment, escape from the incident scene and/or holstering in the absence of an immediate threat---and one or more of these should be done whether or not one has a sash/cap/badge/vest.

I want to try to answer the question I asked earlier in the thread.

I am thinking that the sash, if available, would be ideally deployed after you have scanned and addressed the threat, your area and your weapon and you have determined that the actual fight is over, around the time you do a self-scan for injury. It would be done immediately before calling 911 because the combined motor movement and mental task-loading of pulling out the sash would be less than calling 911 and talking with the dispatcher, and I prefer to complete the easiest tasks first. This way, the sash is already out in the open with minimal delay and may discourage arriving armed good guys from simply automatically firing upon the person they see with a handgun. Then call 911, and if you can get to cover/concealment, appropriately distance yourself from the incident scene or holster your handgun, then do so.

[yerasimos]

I will say that if I had to choose one piece of additional hardware from among a Taser, flexicuffs/handcuffs or a sash, I would choose to carry the sash over a Taser or the restraints. The sash looks silly and its role is limited, but I can see how it might buy some needed time and discourage getting shot on sight. I can practice pulling out the sash; carrying/training with Taser hardware is less practical, and I have not been trained in restraint techniques.

[Oldgringo]

It'll work just fine until the bad guys start wearing them.

If bad guys can steal police uniforms (and they do), stealing (or buying) sashes wouldn't be difficult for them.

This brings up an interesting question. From what we've seen and heard lately; e.g., Las Vegas; the LEO's, bless their hearts, may not be in better control of their faculties than we CH licensees may be when the {you know hits the fan thinghy}.

I think I'd rather take my chances on being invisible. Being an armed, but invisible, witness sounds like it may work out better for me than being the dead hero thing...sorry.

OTOH, NONE of US, know what we'll do until its our turn in the barrel. Who knows, after the smoke clears, I could emerge as the hero? You just never know...

[Excaliber]

It'll work just fine until the bad guys start wearing them.

If bad guys can steal police uniforms (and they do), stealing (or buying) sashes wouldn't be difficult for them.

This brings up an interesting question. From what we've seen and heard lately; e.g., Las Vegas; the LEO's, bless their hearts, may not be in better control of their faculties than we CH licensees may be when the {you know hits the fan thinghy}.

I think I'd rather take my chances on being invisible. Being an armed, but invisible, witness sounds like it may work out better for me than being the dead hero thing...sorry.

OTOH, NONE of US, know what we'll do until its our turn in the barrel. Who knows, after the smoke clears, I could emerge as the hero? You just never know...

I hear that a lot, and there's some truth to it, but only to a point.

You can get a pretty accurate preview of how you'll do if you consider what you've trained for, how many realistic variables were introduced into that training, and how you performed during that the training.

The training environment is the place to learn to recognize opportunities and hazards and make and learn from mistakes. Taking advantage of this makes it much more likely that things will go more or less according to plan when it counts.

Training is not the real thing, and Old Gringo is right that you never know fore sure how you'll perform until you are confronted with real life situations that don't allow for do overs. However, I've trained a lot of folks who did high risk - high consequence things for a living, and I had a lot of opportunities to see how things turned out with varying levels and methods of training.

The feedback I found most rewarding after a successfully managed critical incident was to hear an officer say, "I knew exactly what to do and when to do it. It was just like the training exercise."

[Oldgringo]

Excaliber,

I respect your experience as a LEO and have learned much from your most insightful posts.

I can't speak for any other CHL in this world other than Mrs. Oldgringo (that's iffey). We are civilians, neither she nor I have had any training as to what to do when and if we're ever caught in the middle of a civilian vs LEO...or any other shootout.

My position remains unchanged; i.e:

"I think I'd rather take my chances on being invisible. Being an armed, but invisible, witness sounds like it may work out better for me than being the dead hero thing...sorry.

OTOH, NONE of US (civilians), know what we'll do until it's our turn in the barrel. Who knows, after the smoke clears, I could emerge as the hero? You just never know..."

Thanks for that you do for this forum.

[Excaliber]

Excaliber,

I respect your experience as a LEO and have learned much from your most insightful posts.

I can't speak for any other CHL in this world other than Mrs. Oldgringo (that's iffey). We are civilians, neither she nor I have had any training as to what to do when and if we're ever caught in the middle of a civilian vs LEO...or any other shootout.

My position remains unchanged; i.e:

"I think I'd rather take my chances on being invisible. Being an armed, but invisible, witness sounds like it may work out better for me than being the dead hero thing...sorry.

OTOH, NONE of US (civilians), know what we'll do until it's our turn in the barrel. Who knows, after the smoke clears, I could emerge as the hero? You just never know..."

Thanks for that you do for this forum.

Old Gringo, thanks very much for the kind words. You bring a great deal to the Forum as well, and I always enjoy your posts.

Whether to act or not in a situation where you have reasonable options (e.g. when the victim is someone other than yourself or a loved one) is a deeply personal choice that must be made according to the incident circumstances and one's conscience. I would never presume to make that choice for anyone but myself. That's difficult enough.

The "silent witness" approach may well be the best course in a given circumstance. In another, we may decide to intervene, however reluctantly.

I don't think in terms of heroics at all - I make choices based on physical, mental, spiritual, and financial survival.

[KD5NRH]

I keep a reflector vest in the car for tire changes and such, and it occurred to me that might be a good, quick way to describe myself to the dispatcher. It also occurs to me that I have another one (my vest; the company's too cheap to provide them unless we deal with traffic on a regular basis) with "SECURITY" across the back. That might buy me a few seconds if police show up before I'm able to disarm, (or another CHL sees the gun) so I may start carrying it with me.

If nothing else, nobody in their right mind can accuse you of trying to sneak or hide while wearing one of those.

[MojoTexas]

For me, I think the best thing to do is to make sure that the moment LEO are on the scene, you reholster your weapon slowly and put your hands in the air. Also making sure that the dispatcher has a description of you and has relayed to the police that you're the good guy.

Looking "clean-cut" doesn't hurt either...although some people may vehemently disagree. Like it or not, first impressions are a fact of life, and if you LOOK like a bad guy you're more likely to be treated like a bad guy.

Any sort of CHL identification like the sash would need to be sanctioned by the Texas DPS and more or less be universally recognized before I would start carrying one. In the Tony Arambula case, it sounds like he wouldn't have had time to tell the bad guy, "Stay there, I'm going to go get my CCW sash," before the officers burst into the house.

[VoiceofReason]

I don’t intend to point a gun at someone unless I have to use it. If I have to use it I will not have to hold that person at gunpoint until law enforcement arrives.

I will put my handgun down or put the shotgun back under the bed, put coffee on, sit down in the living room and wait for law enforcement.

If outside the home, I will holster my handgun and find a place in the immediate area to sit and wait.

[terryg]

I don’t intend to point a gun at someone unless I have to use it. If I have to use it I will not have to hold that person at gunpoint until law enforcement arrives.

I will put my handgun down or put the shotgun back under the bed, put coffee on, sit down in the living room and wait for law enforcement.

If outside the home, I will holster my handgun and find a place in the immediate area to sit and wait.

I am just curious to follow this out to fruition. You are absolutely sure that there is no circumstance where you could be put into this scenario?

So if you had a BG armed with a knife is in your home and, even possibly threating you or your family. So you draw your gun - he sees you reach for it and before you get it out and get a bead on him, he drops the knife and says "Alright, I'm sorry - Don't shoot!!" Then what?

[KD5NRH]

So if you had a BG armed with a knife is in your home and, even possibly threating you or your family. So you draw your gun - he sees you reach for it and before you get it out and get a bead on him, he drops the knife and says "Alright, I'm sorry - Don't shoot!!" Then what?

Have him move well away from the knife, then prone him out through verbal commands, so that his feet are toward you. When LE is close enough, holster or put down your weapon. The BG won't be able to see that you've disarmed, and the cops should get him under their control before he has a chance to figure it out.

[terryg]

So if you had a BG armed with a knife is in your home and, even possibly threating you or your family. So you draw your gun - he sees you reach for it and before you get it out and get a bead on him, he drops the knife and says "Alright, I'm sorry - Don't shoot!!" Then what?

Have him move well away from the knife, then prone him out through verbal commands, so that his feet are toward you. When LE is close enough, holster or put down your weapon. The BG won't be able to see that you've disarmed, and the cops should get him under their control before he has a chance to figure it out.

I understand that. My point was for VOR to reconsider the confidence level that there is no possible scenario where he could need to draw his gun and not fire. At first read it makes sense. But I think it is wise to consider many possibilities and I can certainly see a few scenarios that would not conform to a drawing=firing formula.

[VoiceofReason]

So if you had a BG armed with a knife is in your home and, even possibly threating you or your family. So you draw your gun - he sees you reach for it and before you get it out and get a bead on him, he drops the knife and says "Alright, I'm sorry - Don't shoot!!" Then what?

Have him move well away from the knife, then prone him out through verbal commands, so that his feet are toward you. When LE is close enough, holster or put down your weapon. The BG won't be able to see that you've disarmed, and the cops should get him under their control before he has a chance to figure it out.

If he is in my house I will not take any chances. I am not a cop. I do not have to “Have him move well away from the knife, then prone him out through verbal commands”.
I am also not going to worry about him coming back to “visit” me when he gets out of prison.

When the police arrive he will have a knife in his hand and I will be cut guaranteed.

[jester]

If he is in my house I will not take any chances. I am not a cop. I do not have to “Have him move well away from the knife, then prone him out through verbal commands”.
I am also not going to worry about him coming back to “visit” me when he gets out of prison.

When the police arrive he will have a knife in his hand and I will be cut guaranteed.

Tampering with evidence is generally not a good idea. However, I would agree that a homeowner has no legal or moral obligation to warn an armed robber before stopping the threat he poses to the homeowner or other innocents in the house. Why give up the tactical advantage of surprise?