Explain 46.03 (places weapons excluded), please.

[Hoi Polloi]

It begins...

§ 46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits
an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly
possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or
prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or
educational institution, any grounds or building on which an
activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being
conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or
educational institution, whether the school or educational
institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written
regulations or written authorization of the institution;

I'm asking this because the answer has bearing on another question I want to ask. Is there any record of the intent behind this law? Any precedent on interpreting "educational institution" or on how narrowly "any grounds" is understood? At face value, any museum or cultural place or day care center that calls itself a day school or any random place where children happen to be on a field trip would be excluded.

This is a purely intellectual question so no need to mention beating the rap but not the ride. I want to understand what exactly makes a place go on this list, especially in the view of the legislature and/or the courts.

[bdickens]

What makes these places go on a "prohibhited places" list is either of two things: a belief that some places are magically immune to violence or a belief that some places will magically cause law-abiding citizens to instantly transform into murderous psychopaths if they are allowed to bring potentially dnagerous objects in with them.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Though not expressly stated, the "grounds" refers to property owned or leased by a school. This is clear based upon the entire subsection referenced. It does not apply to museums, non-school libraries, etc. Some school administrators and some municipal elected officials would argue different. To my knowledge, there is no case law on point, nor is there an AG's opinion.

I do not recall any specific discussions about such locations during any committee hearings on SB60. If there are none, then there is no "legislative history/legislative intent" to be researched.

Chas.

[Hoi Polloi]

OK, thanks, Charles! Now I know how to word my other question.

That would be a nice section to include in the 2011 clean-up bill!

So what if multiple schools were congregating at a central location (not otherwise posted) for an official school event? Would written notice from the school you're associated with suffice or would every participating school have to give permission?

[The Annoyed Man]

This is a purely intellectual question so no need to mention beating the rap but not the ride. I want to understand what exactly makes a place go on this list, especially in the view of the legislature and/or the courts.

This seems like kind of a murky area to me. For instance, I have carried into the Kimbell Art Museum in Fort Worth. There is no 30.06 signage posted - or at least, there wasn't any the last time I was there earlier this year. And, it is perfectly legal for me to be carrying in there at the same time that a public school field trip is touring the museum, as long as I am not part of that field trip. However, if I am acting as a parental "chaperone" on that same field trip, then I cannot carry into the museum (or at any other time and place during that field trip either, as long as I am part of it). Now, suppose I was visiting the museum by myself, got there at noon, and then at 1 p.m. a field trip from my child's school shows up, with my child in tow. My child recognizes me across the room and runs up to me yelling "Daddy!!!" A teacher and one or two of the children wander over to see what is happening, and I am now in the middle of a school field trip in a manner which was not of my own planning or consent. Am I now suddenly in violation of the law?

Let's remove my child from the scenario. I'm at the museum, on my own, and a field trip from my child's school of which I am not a part shows up at the same time that I'm there. A teacher recognizes me and wanders over to say hello, accompanied by a couple of the kids. Am I now suddenly in violation of the law?

IANAL, so I genuinely do not know the answers to these questions, but the problem with the law as written is that it hypothetically places CHL holders at legal risk in ways which cannot always be planned for. Indeed, the only way to avoid the possibility of such things is to leave your gun at home - which of course defeats the purpose of CHL in the first place. I would think that the way to repair the situation is to stipulate somewhere in the law that, unless a parent has signed a form officially affiliating themselves with an off-campus activity, then it is a defense to prosecution for a CHL holder who suddenly and unexpectedly finds themselves in a situation which would otherwise be off limits.

Better yet would be to do away with silly restrictions on CHL, but that's not going to happen.

[Hoi Polloi]

Though not expressly stated, the "grounds" refers to property owned or leased by a school.

I thought I knew how to word it, but now I have a follow-up. Where can I find the legal definition of school that would be applied in this situation? In the penal code? The education code?

[texasjeep44]

I don't know if there is truely a definition of "school" for this specific section of the penal code.

You might look over in the education code for the definition of school. I am going to guess that your going to get something that refers to K-12, or maybe even pre-k-12 depending on who it is run by or if they receive state funding. I don't think that day care facilities are going to fall into this catagory.

After the 12th grade, you get into educational institution which would cover colleges, universities and probably even accredited trade school campuses.

Under PC 46.03 I believe it gives some insight as to what is considered the premises of the institutions which doesn't cover parking lots of sidewalks, etc. Basically don't go into a building, or onto the part of a campus where a sporting event, pep rally or other school function is being held.

What specifically are you looking for. Is there a place that you are not sure whether it is a "school" or not?

[Hoi Polloi]

What specifically are you looking for. Is there a place that you are not sure whether it is a "school" or not?

I'm going to ask a somewhat unrelated question about wording a freedom of information act request, but I need to make sure I have this issue resolved in order to have the proper wording in order to ask the other question.

[Hoi Polloi]

So what bearing does this have on CHL holders? I think I've reached my thinking quota for the day so I might have to come back tomorrow when I can focus again. From what I can tell, the education code does not define school outside of this:

• Sec. 1.001. APPLICABILITY. (a) This code applies to all educational institutions supported in whole or in part by state tax funds unless specifically excluded by this code.
  
  (b) Except as provided by Chapter 18, Chapter 19, Subchapter A of Chapter 29, Subchapter E of Chapter 30, or Chapter 30A, this code does not apply to students, facilities, or programs under the jurisdiction of the Department of Aging and Disability Services, the Department of State Health Services, the Health and Human Services Commission, the Texas Youth Commission, the Texas Department of Criminal Justice, a Job Corps program operated by or under contract with the United States Department of Labor, or any juvenile probation agency.

It later defines a private school and a charter school, but not "educational institutions" or "a school." The definition of "educational institutions" would make a massive difference in deciding if some place like a zoo offering educational camps qualifies. What about when they offer classes for teachers who then get continuing education credits for attending? I feel confidant that it doesn't based on the usages I've found, but I'd really like to find a definition to support my belief.

• SUBTITLE A. GENERAL PROVISIONS
  CHAPTER 5. DEFINITIONS
  Sec. 5.001. DEFINITIONS. In this title:
  (6-a) "Private school" means a school that:
  (A) offers a course of instruction for students in one or more grades from prekindergarten through grade 12; and
  (B) is not operated by a governmental entity.

[Keith B]

So what bearing does this have on CHL holders? I think I've reached my thinking quota for the day so I might have to come back tomorrow when I can focus again. From what I can tell, the education code does not define school outside of this:

• Sec. 1.001. APPLICABILITY. (a) This code applies to all educational institutions supported in whole or in part by state tax funds unless specifically excluded by this code.
  
  (b) Except as provided by Chapter 18, Chapter 19, Subchapter A of Chapter 29, Subchapter E of Chapter 30, or Chapter 30A, this code does not apply to students, facilities, or programs under the jurisdiction of the Department of Aging and Disability Services, the Department of State Health Services, the Health and Human Services Commission, the Texas Youth Commission, the Texas Department of Criminal Justice, a Job Corps program operated by or under contract with the United States Department of Labor, or any juvenile probation agency.

It later defines a private school and a charter school, but not "educational institutions" or "a school." The definition of "educational institutions" would make a massive difference in deciding if some place like a zoo offering educational camps qualifies. What about when they offer classes for teachers who then get continuing education credits for attending? I feel confidant that it doesn't based on the usages I've found, but I'd really like to find a definition to support my belief.

• SUBTITLE A. GENERAL PROVISIONS
  CHAPTER 5. DEFINITIONS
  Sec. 5.001. DEFINITIONS. In this title:
  (6-a) "Private school" means a school that:
  (A) offers a course of instruction for students in one or more grades from prekindergarten through grade 12; and
  (B) is not operated by a governmental entity.

Hoi,

This has been discussed before, and there is no real clear legal definition that anyone has been able to find. Without a case for precedence or a AG letter, we have to kinda figure out for ourselves.

My guide has always been if they are an 'accredited' school. Texas has lists of public schools under the Texas Education Agency, and the those private schools accredited by the Texas Private School Accreditation Commission (TEPSAC). While it may not be legally binding if ever brought into a court case, IMO the intent of the law was aimed at these types of institutions, and not an educational program at a museum or zoo, and definitely not at places like Joe's School of Karate.
Here are links to the lists of schools that I would consider meet the guidelines:

Public Schools
Private Schools

For me, this is as good an argument defense as I have been able to find for if I ever had to prove why I was carrying at a location and someone tried to define the place as a school.

EDIT TO ADD: Universities are a different matter, and those hosptials associated with them is for another discussion.

[kahrfreak]

Here's another one to think about:

Some people believe that an "educational institution" includes *any* building that is related to K-12 education. For instance, the Garland Special Events Center is posted 30.06. If it is considered an educational institution, then 30.06 doesn't apply. If it's *not* an educational institution (and there are not school-related activities going on at the time), then 30.06 still doesn't apply, since the SEC is owned by a governmental body, in which case concealed carry is legal (so long as there aren't any school-related activities going on).

Same goes with learning resource centers, educational service centers, professional development centers, etc.: There seems to be some question as to whether these buildings, which almost never involve direct education of students, are considered "educational institutions." Some are posted; some are not.

So the questions you ask are rather far-reaching, and no one seems to have the answers. I'm sure one reason is that no one wants to be the test case!

As an aside, I've often wondered why legislators believe that the lives of children are somehow worth less than the lives of adults, in that they permit adults to protect themselves and others via concealed carry, but they exclude the lives of our children while in school. Makes no sense, and I digress...

[dicion]

This seems like kind of a murky area to me. For instance, I have carried into the Kimbell Art Museum in Fort Worth. There is no 30.06 signage posted - or at least, there wasn't any the last time I was there earlier this year. And, it is perfectly legal for me to be carrying in there at the same time that a public school field trip is touring the museum, as long as I am not part of that field trip. However, if I am acting as a parental "chaperon" on that same field trip, then I cannot carry into the museum (or at any other time and place during that field trip either, as long as I am part of it).

I'm pretty sure we've been over this before, and we've agreed to disagree, but I would like my opinion to be known to certain other people that may be reading this for the first time.

In my opinion, acting as a chaperon on a field trip/school activity does not preclude you from carrying on any property that is not 'School Grounds' as defined by Charles above (eg, not owned by the school).
As long as you don't ride the school bus there (I agree that carry on a school bus is illegal), and as long as the place is not prohibited by carry for any other reason (30.06. 46.035, etc), It is my opinion that it is not illegal to carry under such circumstances.

My point of argument is this:
By Charles' Description of 46.03 above, if it is not property owned by the school, then a school activity going on there has absolutely no bearing on legality to carry.
As such, please, point out any other statute, other than 46.03(a)(1) that would preclude you from carrying while chaperoning a field trip at the above mentioned Art Museum, for example.

We had this exact same argument a few months ago over chaperoning a prom. That was a little more 'grey' due to the fact that the school probably rented/leased the facility, and as such, may have had the rights given to mean that, at that time, it was school property (due to the school paying to rent it). An Art Museum is not 'school property' (Unless it's on a college or school campus, and owned by the school, and I'm pretty sure the aforementioned one does not meet this criteria).

[troglodyte]

So what if multiple schools were congregating at a central location (not otherwise posted) for an official school event? Would written notice from the school you're associated with suffice or would every participating school have to give permission?

The way I see it this could fall under 46.035 (unlawful carry by license holder) ...holder...commits offense..."(2)on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place..." depending on what they were gathered for.

Interscholastic event = existing or carried on between schools <interscholastic athletics> (http://www.m-w.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) A competition.

Even a host of schools at a museum doesn't necessarily mean it is off-limits. Now if they are all at the civic center for a band contest that would be different.

I have always been led to believe that 46.03, as Charles has mentioned, refers to the school grounds proper. (premise has been defined in 46.035) Even then there must be an activity. The playground is not off-limits to a CHL until a class comes out for recess. The area around a school's flag pole is not off-limits until See You at the Pole is organized around it. Standing on the school yard and chatting with a friend is fine. It's not an organized school activity.

Still, there is a lot of grey area. How close do you have to be to an activity? If the cheerleaders are practicing on one end of the school yard and you're standing on the other end does that make you in violation? Is a fenced in area considered a "building". If a football game is going on inside of a fenced field, are the grounds outside the fence fair game? Can a gun show be in the exhibit hall while a band contest is being held in the auditorum under the same civic center roof? Being a teacher and being around a lot of schools and school activities I can come up with many "what-ifs"

In my opinion, acting as a chaperon on a field trip/school activity does not preclude you from carrying on any property that is not 'School Grounds' as defined by Charles above (eg, not owned by the school).
As long as you don't ride the school bus there (I agree that carry on a school bus is illegal), and as long as the place is not prohibited by carry for any other reason (30.06. 46.035, etc), It is my opinion that it is not illegal to carry under such circumstances.

My point of argument is this:
By Charles' Description of 46.03 above, if it is not property owned by the school, then a school activity going on there has absolutely no bearing on legality to carry.
As such, please, point out any other statute, other than 46.03(a)(1) that would preclude you from carrying while chaperoning a field trip at the above mentioned Art Museum, for example.

This is really a tough one for me. I see your point, and want to agree with it, but I fall back to what seems reasonable, at least to me, to what the law intended. Now I will readily admit that I am not clear and certainly have a preconceived idea that is making it tough to reason out. As a teacher I tend to take my "classroom" with me. I know it is a mental hurdle and I think you are probably correct. It's just going to take some time to grow on me as my viewpoint shifts. Make no mistake, I would love to be able to carry at school, that is not the issue. As a teacher with a CHL I have to make sure I'm very careful. I guess it falls back to the "any grounds or building" while being "officially" associated with the function and the prosecution using that against me. And yes, I realize I am arguing both sides and adding association...I don't like it either. That's why it is confusing to me. If I am a school employee and I am acting as the sponsor on a field trip, and am not otherwise prohibited (i.e. employee handbook, 30.06, rode bus), could I legally carry while leading the group around? See, it seems counterintuitive that I could lead the same students around in the museum carrying and be prohibited from carrying in class or around them on the school grounds during an activity.

And, as always, IANAL...and that should be painfully obvious.

[Beiruty]

How about carrying in :
An ISD administrative building, a technology service center where on first floor there a secured entrance to basic adult education center(not sure if admiminstative only, but never saw adult students)
Can one carries in that building while never going to the secured education center.