Rep Riddle responds to Houston Chronicle Editorial

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PeteCamp

Re: Rep Riddle responds to Houston Chronicle Editorial

Post by PeteCamp »

On a side note, Riddle has to coax out the threat of a "dirty bomb" to finally justify her concerns? I want the border secured, but haven't we played the WMD fiddle enough? One day the politicians and media will wake up and realize that they've cried wolf a few million times too many.
No. It will have been played one too many times on the day after a dirty bomb or small nuke goes off in one of the large population "target cities" around the country. We Americans still have the luxury of playing "fiddle games" with the subject of WMD's because we naively believe we can talk our way out of anyone using one on us. The day one goes off, all the games-playing will cease forever. Kind of like air travel changed after 9-11. Only fools believe those whose twisted religion brought them to fly airplanes into buildings would not use a WMD if they got their hands on one. Those who would use such a weapon have nothing to lose and the assistance of a bunch of folks in the U.S. who believe what? That they and the weapons don't exist?

BTW....They don't want to blow up the politicians and media. They want to blow us up.
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Re: Rep Riddle responds to Houston Chronicle Editorial

Post by idrathernot »

Your right we need to bring back the drills where children duck under their desks. After all, the Russians still have thousands of nuclear warheads and we are sorely lacking a ballistic missile defense. Why did we ever stop building our fallout shelters?

The point I was making was not that the potential for tragedy does not exist. We have become a culture of fear; never let a crisis go to waste. Generations of Americans have slowly let their liberties be siphoned away by politicians and journalists because they were afraid. It's only ensuring that the need for elections or free press will be "temporarily suspended" during a time of crisis. I find that prospect a thousand times more terrible than any "dirty bomb" or "suitcase nuke".
PeteCamp

Re: Rep Riddle responds to Houston Chronicle Editorial

Post by PeteCamp »

You make some good points. Here are some facts, as I see them, that cannot be ignored.
1) The world is a much more dangerous place now than when I grew up and practiced "duck and cover." Then we knew who the enemy was and exactly where to find him. Using nuclear weapons was tantamount to suicide - by either side. Even then, with the frequent references to the "doomsday clock", we learned to live with our fears. Today none of those things are true. We don't have to run screaming out into the street every day, but neither should we just pretend everything is OK and nothing will ever happen. I believe a little caution is in order. As you said, we tore down our bomb shelters and quit building ABM's.

2) I too worry about free and honest elections. But what freedoms and liberties have we lost with the fear of WMD's? Most of us on this forum carry legally concealed handguns. I couldn't do that back in the 1960's. Am I more free or less? Granted, we have lost some freedoms because we are at war with terrorists. That is one of the costs of a war wherein we cannot distinguish those who would destroy us from those who live next door. I had some freedoms taken away back in the 60's that put everything you face today to pale. I had to register for the draft and the looming prospect of a paid vacation in Vietnam. Freedom of the press? Surely you jest! The press is entertainment and a political force and has been for many years. :???:

3) Ultimately you say you fear the things you mentioned more than WMD's. At least we can still vote, and have some freedoms left to effect change in our world. I think you need to do some research about what a 15kt "small" bomb would do to Austin. Or how many freedoms you would lose if a dirty bomb went off downtown. And the bad news is that if one goes off anywhere in America, improbable as we believe it to be, we will all lose some freedoms. The survivors will demand that.

4) Those who are taking freedoms from us could care less about WMD's. Was it the threat of WMD's that forced us to purchase healthcare or be fined? Or generated the "salt police"? Or ran up trillions of dollars in debt bailing out failed businesses? Or stopped deep water drilling? I could go on and on. I believe this very strongly: Politicians are not taking our freedoms away because they are afraid. Far from it. Politicians are doing so because they are drunk with power. :mad5

Anyway, enough of this from me. A final thought though. If you had a nuke and wanted to blow up an American city, what would be the easiest way to get it into the country? Our borders here in W. Texas are so porous, you could drive a dozen divisions of tanks across and nobody would ever know until it was too late. I applaud politicians who take the responsibility to secure the border seriously. Even if they do have to mention WMD's.
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Re: Rep Riddle responds to Houston Chronicle Editorial

Post by The Annoyed Man »

All I know is that voter fraud jumped tremendously in California when they did two things: 1) make it legal to issue drivers licenses to illegal aliens; and 2) instituted motor/voter registration, in which you register to vote while getting your California drivers license. Guess who started registering to vote, when previously they were unable to?
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

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idrathernot
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Re: Rep Riddle responds to Houston Chronicle Editorial

Post by idrathernot »

Perhaps it is because of my young age that I have a different perspective. For more or less the entirety of my life the headlines have raced from one potential catastrophe to the other. The War on Drugs, Crime, Poverty, and Terror were all started during my lifetime and they all seem to be a stalemate to me. We've had scares covering anything from Anthrax to Y2K and literally everything in between. Global Cooling, Global Warming, Population Explosion, Super-predators, Cyberbullying, even Texting-While-Driving.

Meanwhile, crime has dropped dramatically, there's so much abundance that we have an "obesity epidemic", and yet life expectancies are higher than they have ever been for any man at anytime in the history of the human race. You say that today is a more dangerous place than it was 50 - 60 years ago. I'm sorry but I just don't see it. The only difference between now and then was that technology is better and word travels a lot farther, a lot faster, and reaches a much larger audience. When was the last time the National Guard needed to be called in to quell "civil disobedience"? How long has it been since a major riot, L.A. after Rodney King? Time Square used to be full of crack, prostitutes, and pornography. Las Vegas used to be owned by the mob, now it's America's #1 tourist destination. Planes were still hijacked, hostages taken, buildings bombed, etc.

We could go down the line listing specific liberties that are more limited or not. Indeed I do not have to worry about being shipped off to Vietnam, but I still registered for selective service. I'm referring more to the loss of free enterprise that we have seen as a result of poor monetary policy, bloated tax codes, extreme federal regulation and monolithic federal spending, all of which have really only gone in one direction since that wonderful New Deal.

Yes the freedom of the press is not a right exercised very earnestly. There are still outlets outside FOX, MSNBC, and CNN that aren't completely bought and sold. Go check out wikileaks.org sometime.

Your spot on with #4. The politicians are not scared of anything at all. Why would they be? Both the House of Lords and former Central Committee of the Communist Party have (had) higher turnover rates than the American Congress. They're practically royalty. They know however that WE are afraid. Fear mongering was used as a major tactic in all of the examples you listed. "Too Big to Fail" remember? Needed to pass this bailout yesterday, don't bother reading it. Don't read the Health care reform, we gotta pass it now! There are 13 million Americans without coverage!!! Oh no an oil spill! Gotta pass cap-n-trade now!!!

I know that the War on Terror is real and that we are vulnerable to attack, but I also know that fear is being exploited politically. Politicians know that we have a very ingrained fear of nuclear weapons, especially when it comes to primary voter demographics. When I see a candidate appealing to our fear, I can't help but distrust that motivation. When a politician appeals to our logic and not emotion, I know that they respect our intellect a little more and maybe even fear US a little bit. THAT is the type of fear I am all for promoting.
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Re: Rep Riddle responds to Houston Chronicle Editorial

Post by Douva »

PeteCamp wrote:I think you need to do some research about what a 15kt "small" bomb would do to Austin. Or how many freedoms you would lose if a dirty bomb went off downtown. And the bad news is that if one goes off anywhere in America, improbable as we believe it to be, we will all lose some freedoms. The survivors will demand that.
The threat from "dirty bombs" is overblown. The threat from nukes in the hands of rogue nations and terrorist organizations is not.

"Effects of a Nuclear Attack on Austin, TX": http://www.civiliangasmasks.com/austnuke.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I disagree that the world is much more dangerous now than it was in the "duck and cover" days. Do some research into how many times a stupid error on the part of either the U.S. or Soviet Union almost triggered a full-scale nuclear exchange.

Here are a few examples (but far from an exhaustive list):

http://www.psychsound.com/2006/08/the_n ... rmiss.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/19589" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My favorite (though I don't believe it's included in those articles) is the time Yelstin (possibly drunk) simply decided he wasn't going to retaliate against what was interpreted as a U.S. launch. One high-pressure decision by that alcoholic Rusky saved the whole damn world.

And remember, these "near misses" don't include real standoffs, like the Cuban Missile Crisis. The threat from terrorist organizations and rogue nations is very real, but the chances of one of them destroying all life as we know it is highly unlikely.

By the way, "duck and cover" was good advice, despite what the standup comedians would have you believe.
PeteCamp

Re: Rep Riddle responds to Houston Chronicle Editorial

Post by PeteCamp »

I know that the War on Terror is real and that we are vulnerable to attack, but I also know that fear is being exploited politically. Politicians know that we have a very ingrained fear of nuclear weapons, especially when it comes to primary voter demographics. When I see a candidate appealing to our fear, I can't help but distrust that motivation. When a politician appeals to our logic and not emotion, I know that they respect our intellect a little more and maybe even fear US a little bit. THAT is the type of fear I am all for promoting.
I agree with a great deal of what you are saying (except wikileaks???). However, to me it really doesn't matter what politicians say that is not factual. For my part, I'm not frightened by politicians. Surely we are not cowering because of threats just made today, for example, by our humble Speaker of the House to investigate those who exercise their First Amendment rights and argue that a mosque should not be built next to the 9-11 site? (and no, let's not argue that one)

My opinion, and it is the opinion of many who study war and geopolitical issues, is that the world is indeed, a more dangerous place. It was certainly dangerous back when I was much younger. But consider what I said: We knew exactly who the enemy was and exactly where to find him. If a jihadist nukes an American city, would we know who he was and exactly where to find him? If you were the POTUS and had 250 million Americans screaming for you to find him and kill him, would you know where to start?

Now here is the leap of logic. If YOU were a jihadist, would it be safer for you to attack America (or any other country) now and avoid retaliation because nobody knows exactly who or where to hit back, or to have issued the orders from the Kremlin 40 years ago? Would that knowledge make it easier for you to do the unthinkable?

If it is easier and safer to get away with the use of a nuclear weapon today than 40 years ago, are we being a bit naive to proclaim the world safer from a disaster of horrible proportions? You don't have to unleash thousands of nuclear weapons to turn the world upside down. Just one will do nicely.

And yes, A dirty bomb is not as bad as a thermonuclear device. But it would be bad. JMHO anyway.
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gabe
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Re: Rep Riddle responds to Houston Chronicle Editorial

Post by gabe »

PeteCamp wrote:Anyway, enough of this from me. A final thought though. If you had a nuke and wanted to blow up an American city, what would be the easiest way to get it into the country?
One of the easiest ways may be by private boat or airplane. It's more expensive than humping a nuke across the desert, but the Saudis have no shortage of money.
"it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government" - John Hancock et alii
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Re: Rep Riddle responds to Houston Chronicle Editorial

Post by Douva »

PeteCamp wrote:If it is easier and safer to get away with the use of a nuclear weapon today than 40 years ago, are we being a bit naive to proclaim the world safer from a disaster of horrible proportions? You don't have to unleash thousands of nuclear weapons to turn the world upside down. Just one will do nicely.

And yes, A dirty bomb is not as bad as a thermonuclear device. But it would be bad. JMHO anyway.
Yes, terrorists have an advantage not enjoyed by the Soviet Union: anonymity. But when you consider how many times the U.S. and the Soviet Union danced on the precipice of full-scale nuclear war and how difficult it would be for terrorists to obtain one nuclear bomb, much lest several, I think it's pretty clear that the worst case scenario during the cold war was much worse than any current terrorist scenario.

A full-scale nuclear exchange between the Soviet Union and the U.S. would have resulted in the death of BILLIONS of people (possibly up to 90% of the world's population, when you consider residual effects such as the destruction of electrical grids, starvation, etc). The most liberal estimates for the detonation of a small (<20kt) nuclear device in a densely populated urban area (i.e., New York City) put the death toll at about one million.

To illustrate the difference between a million and a billion, consider this: If you received a dollar a second from the moment you were born, you'd be a millionaire before you were even twelve days old, but you wouldn't be a billionaire until you were almost thirty-two years old. That helps put the difference between one million and six billion into perspective.

A nuclear detonation on American soil would certainly turn our lives upside down, at least for the foreseeable future, but unlike a full-scale nuclear exchange, it wouldn't be the end of all life as we know it.

The death toll from a dirty bomb would likely be less (much less) than the death toll on 9/11. And many of those deaths would occur years after the actual attack. The biggest threat from a dirty bomb attack is the threat to our liberties from a terrified population willing to give up any and all freedoms for the promise of security.
PeteCamp

Re: Rep Riddle responds to Houston Chronicle Editorial

Post by PeteCamp »

A nuclear detonation on American soil would certainly turn our lives upside down, at least for the foreseeable future, but unlike a full-scale nuclear exchange, it wouldn't be the end of all life as we know it.

The death toll from a dirty bomb would likely be less (much less) than the death toll on 9/11. And many of those deaths would occur years after the actual attack. The biggest threat from a dirty bomb attack is the threat to our liberties from a terrified population willing to give up any and all freedoms for the promise of security.
Granted it would certainly not end all life. And doubtless it would not only turn our lives upside down, but those of the whole world. However, you do know that there are plans to "respond in kind" to attacks by WMD's? No one talked about it much when we went into Iraq, but these are long-standing plans. Only one thermonuclear attack could trigger a limited or even full-scale response on someone.

And even if we didn't respond in kind, what you describe as the threat from a dirty bomb would surely happen if a thermonuclear device were involved - perhaps on an even grander scale. Would it not?
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Re: Rep Riddle responds to Houston Chronicle Editorial

Post by Douva »

PeteCamp wrote:
A nuclear detonation on American soil would certainly turn our lives upside down, at least for the foreseeable future, but unlike a full-scale nuclear exchange, it wouldn't be the end of all life as we know it.

The death toll from a dirty bomb would likely be less (much less) than the death toll on 9/11. And many of those deaths would occur years after the actual attack. The biggest threat from a dirty bomb attack is the threat to our liberties from a terrified population willing to give up any and all freedoms for the promise of security.
Granted it would certainly not end all life. And doubtless it would not only turn our lives upside down, but those of the whole world. However, you do know that there are plans to "respond in kind" to attacks by WMD's? No one talked about it much when we went into Iraq, but these are long-standing plans. Only one thermonuclear attack could trigger a limited or even full-scale response on someone.

And even if we didn't respond in kind, what you describe as the threat from a dirty bomb would surely happen if a thermonuclear device were involved - perhaps on an even grander scale. Would it not?
From everything I've read, most planned responses are "measured," meaning we're not likely to launch 2,000+ nuclear warheads in response to a single terrorist attack, even if that terrorist attack kills a million people. Certainly, a "measured" response COULD escalate into a full-scale exchange (for example, if we retaliated against a country that had a defense treaty with a nuclear power), but more likely than not, we'd decimate our attackers (assuming we knew who they were) with one or two strategic strikes.

Keep in mind that a terrorist attack isn't likely to utilize a thermonuclear (fusion) bomb. More than likely, it would be a simple fission bomb like the ones we dropped on Japan.

If you want to explore a very frightening potential threat, look into the threat from electromagnetic pulse (EMP). If a terrorist state were able to detonate a 100-500 kt nuclear warhead 400 miles above Kansas (most likely by launching a missile from a cargo ship off the U.S. coast), it could theoretically knock out not only the entire U.S. power grid but all unshielded solid-state electronics from central Canada to central Mexico. Because there haven't been any nuclear air bursts since the advent of solid-state electronics, nobody knows just how bad the devastation would be, but based on government estimates, the worst case scenario would render pretty much all electronics, including most post-1980 automobiles, inoperable; destroy all communications (except for some old tube-style ham radios); and result in the death of 90% of the U.S. population within one year. How's that for a spooky bedtime story?

Fortunately, no rogue nations or terrorist organizations (as far as we know) yet have the delivery systems necessary put a sea-launched missile into the stratosphere over the central United States. And fortunately, none of them (as far as we know) are close to building a nuclear weapon of sufficient yield (5-25 times the size of the Nagasaki bomb) needed to create maximum damage. Unfortunately, the U.S. government hasn't been making good use of the window of opportunity created by the terrorists' slow progress.

If you're interested in this sort of thing, pick up a copy of One Second After by William Forstchen. It's a fictional account of the potential aftermath of a worst case scenario EMP attack. Be forewarned, it is NOT a "feel good" book.
Last edited by Douva on Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PeteCamp

Re: Rep Riddle responds to Houston Chronicle Editorial

Post by PeteCamp »

and result in the death of 90% of the U.S. population within one year.
Not that it is funny in itself, but the vision of all those who spend 75% of their day glued to a cell phone with nothing to do and eventually running off a cliff into the sea all the while screaming, "Can you hear me now?" is just too much. :smilelol5:

Sorry. A serious discussion and I just lowered it to the ridiculous. :oops:
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Re: Rep Riddle responds to Houston Chronicle Editorial

Post by snorri »

The projected death toll is probably based on estimated loss of food production and distribution, but I like the mental image of i-Lemmings walking off the cliff.
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Re: Rep Riddle responds to Houston Chronicle Editorial

Post by Douva »

snorri wrote:The projected death toll is probably based on estimated loss of food production and distribution, but I like the mental image of i-Lemmings walking off the cliff.
You are correct, sir.

And yes, the i-Lemmings image is not only humorous but quite the commentary on our technology-dependent society.
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