Katy Mills Mall

[skub]

All of the main entrances have notice in the airlock, on one of the side walls. Carried out there several times before I ever saw it.

Took my renewal class at Bass Pro, and the issue was discussed in class. The instructor said that several attorneys had taken the class from him there, and all agreed that the sign was not valid because did not meet one of the criteria for effective notice of 30.06

(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

[drjoker]

Katygunnut,

I was told by another CHLer this story. The Willowbend Mall used to be 30.06 posted. However, not all the stores were posted. Only the mall entrances were posted. A customer entered the mall at a store entrance that was unposted. He had a cover garment malfunction that showed off his nice pistol. Someone called the cops and he got arrested. This guy sued the mall for damages and punitive damages for his false imprisonment and mental anguish, etc (IANAL). He then settled out of court for much less than what he initially asked for, provided that the mall permanently remove all the odious 30.06 signs. The guy successfully got all the 30.06 signs removed from the mall (yay!).

Carry away. If you do get arrested, be aware that you have done nothing wrong. Delete your post here on the forum, just in case (you need to prove that you were totally unaware of the 30.06 signs at the other mall entrances). Do not EVER use the posted entrances, even when you are unarmed because they WILL look over all the videos with a fine tooth comb. Also, you may not do anything illegal (such as robbing the mall). Finally, promise to reduce or make zero your monetary claims against the mall, provided that they take down the 30.06 signs for other CHLers. I pledge $100.00 towards your legal defense and/or bail if you were arrested for carrying at the mall in violation of 30.06. However, you must meet all the requests I have posted in this paragraph. I invite other gentlemen of distinction and concern for the 2nd Amendment to pledge the same.

Sincerely,

[sjfcontrol]

I was told by another CHLer this story. The Willowbend Mall used to be 30.06 posted. However, not all the stores were posted. Only the mall entrances were posted. A customer entered the mall at a store entrance that was unposted. He had a cover garment malfunction that showed off his nice pistol. Someone called the cops and he got arrested. This guy sued the mall for damages and punitive damages for his false imprisonment and mental anguish, etc (IANAL). He then settled out of court for much less than what he initially asked for, provided that the mall permanently remove all the odious 30.06 signs. The guy successfully got all the 30.06 signs removed from the mall (yay!).

Sounds like a CHL Urban Myth to me.

[Katygunnut]

Katygunnut,

I was told by another CHLer this story. The Willowbend Mall used to be 30.06 posted. However, not all the stores were posted. Only the mall entrances were posted. A customer entered the mall at a store entrance that was unposted. He had a cover garment malfunction that showed off his nice pistol. Someone called the cops and he got arrested. This guy sued the mall for damages and punitive damages for his false imprisonment and mental anguish, etc (IANAL). He then settled out of court for much less than what he initially asked for, provided that the mall permanently remove all the odious 30.06 signs. The guy successfully got all the 30.06 signs removed from the mall (yay!).

Carry away. If you do get arrested, be aware that you have done nothing wrong. Delete your post here on the forum, just in case (you need to prove that you were totally unaware of the 30.06 signs at the other mall entrances). Do not EVER use the posted entrances, even when you are unarmed because they WILL look over all the videos with a fine tooth comb. Also, you may not do anything illegal (such as robbing the mall). Finally, promise to reduce or make zero your monetary claims against the mall, provided that they take down the 30.06 signs for other CHLers. I pledge $100.00 towards your legal defense and/or bail if you were arrested for carrying at the mall in violation of 30.06. However, you must meet all the requests I have posted in this paragraph. I invite other gentlemen of distinction and concern for the 2nd Amendment to pledge the same.

Sincerely,

I can't in good faith delete my post and act like I am not aware of the signs. That would be dishonest.

I will avoid that mall, however. The only reason I go is if I want to look at overpriced guns at BPS, or if the kids want me to spend $10 for 5 minutes on their rock wall. I'm sure that I can find good alternatives for my time and money.

[Pete92FS]

Katygunnut,

I was told by another CHLer this story. The Willowbend Mall used to be 30.06 posted. However, not all the stores were posted. Only the mall entrances were posted. A customer entered the mall at a store entrance that was unposted. He had a cover garment malfunction that showed off his nice pistol. Someone called the cops and he got arrested. This guy sued the mall for damages and punitive damages for his false imprisonment and mental anguish, etc (IANAL). He then settled out of court for much less than what he initially asked for, provided that the mall permanently remove all the odious 30.06 signs. The guy successfully got all the 30.06 signs removed from the mall (yay!).

Carry away. If you do get arrested, be aware that you have done nothing wrong. Delete your post here on the forum, just in case (you need to prove that you were totally unaware of the 30.06 signs at the other mall entrances). Do not EVER use the posted entrances, even when you are unarmed because they WILL look over all the videos with a fine tooth comb. Also, you may not do anything illegal (such as robbing the mall). Finally, promise to reduce or make zero your monetary claims against the mall, provided that they take down the 30.06 signs for other CHLers. I pledge $100.00 towards your legal defense and/or bail if you were arrested for carrying at the mall in violation of 30.06. However, you must meet all the requests I have posted in this paragraph. I invite other gentlemen of distinction and concern for the 2nd Amendment to pledge the same.

Sincerely,

I can't in good faith delete my post and act like I am not aware of the signs. That would be dishonest.



I will avoid that mall, however. The only reason I go is if I want to look at overpriced guns at BPS, or if the kids want me to spend $10 for 5 minutes on their rock wall. I'm sure that I can find good alternatives for my time and money.

You're right about the over-price guns at BPS. You would think with their buying power they could come up with more competitive prices. I put them and Gander Mountain in the same boat.

[PUCKER]

My take is on the BPS here (Grapevine - DFW area), I've seen a $70 HIGHER price on an identical gun at our BPS versus Academy (2 miles from BPS)...crazy! Caveat emptor - but that goes without saying, no matter where you shop and what you buy!

[Katygunnut]

My take is on the BPS here (Grapevine - DFW area), I've seen a $70 HIGHER price on an identical gun at our BPS versus Academy (2 miles from BPS)...crazy! Caveat emptor - but that goes without saying, no matter where you shop and what you buy!

The last time I was at BPS (Katy Mills location), I noticed they stopped carrying Glocks. Made it hard to compare prices since I know all the standard Glock prices at Academy.

[terryg]

So, my take away from this thread is:

Always enter a mall through a store and not through and Mall entrance. This will minimize the chance of discovering that a portion of the mall is posted.

[Outbreaker]

Katygunnut,

I was told by another CHLer this story. The Willowbend Mall used to be 30.06 posted. However, not all the stores were posted. Only the mall entrances were posted. A customer entered the mall at a store entrance that was unposted. He had a cover garment malfunction that showed off his nice pistol. Someone called the cops and he got arrested. This guy sued the mall for damages and punitive damages for his false imprisonment and mental anguish, etc (IANAL). He then settled out of court for much less than what he initially asked for, provided that the mall permanently remove all the odious 30.06 signs. The guy successfully got all the 30.06 signs removed from the mall (yay!).

Carry away. If you do get arrested, be aware that you have done nothing wrong. Delete your post here on the forum, just in case (you need to prove that you were totally unaware of the 30.06 signs at the other mall entrances). Do not EVER use the posted entrances, even when you are unarmed because they WILL look over all the videos with a fine tooth comb. Also, you may not do anything illegal (such as robbing the mall). Finally, promise to reduce or make zero your monetary claims against the mall, provided that they take down the 30.06 signs for other CHLers. I pledge $100.00 towards your legal defense and/or bail if you were arrested for carrying at the mall in violation of 30.06. However, you must meet all the requests I have posted in this paragraph. I invite other gentlemen of distinction and concern for the 2nd Amendment to pledge the same.

Sincerely,

I can't in good faith delete my post and act like I am not aware of the signs. That would be dishonest.

I will avoid that mall, however. The only reason I go is if I want to look at overpriced guns at BPS, or if the kids want me to spend $10 for 5 minutes on their rock wall. I'm sure that I can find good alternatives for my time and money.

What is nice about our system is they have to prove the case. You never have to lie. If the security footage shows you only entering the unmarked entrances and never approaching the marked ones they can't win. Because you do not have to take the stand.

[A-R]

So what is the statute of limitation on a 30.06 posting? If I saw a 30.06 sign posted on a mall entrance in 1999 and today I enter the Sears attached to that mall and find no 30.06, then enter the mall (again finding no 30.06 at threshold between Sears and the mall), could I then be in violation if the main entrance to the mall is still posted 30.06? Seems to me if you're not going to post every entrance, then over some reasonable amount of time I could easily forget that another entrance was posted or even assume "hey, the mall must have new pro-gun owners who took down the signs".

Curious what others think of - as Charles puts it - this "fact pattern".

To my way of thinking, a business should be required to notify you legally under 30.06 for EACH and EVERY entrance to the premises. Previous notifications should be null and void upon subsequent visits. In a nutshell, if you don't post every entrance, then you leave a legal loophole for CHL holders to always enter through the unposted entrance. I realize this may not be the way a judge or jury would interpret the statute, but it sure make sense to me

Also wondering if merely reading that a certain place is posted 30.06 here or on http://www.texas3006.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is enough to prove "notification"? I would think not because neither website is "notifying" me within confines of the 30.06 statute.

I doubt there's much chance of any of this stuff actually happening, but does make for interesting legal "what if" mind game.

[rm9792]

Isnt that similar to what they did with 51%? Every entrance has to be posted?

[sjfcontrol]

So what is the statute of limitation on a 30.06 posting? If I saw a 30.06 sign posted on a mall entrance in 1999 and today I enter the Sears attached to that mall and find no 30.06, then enter the mall (again finding no 30.06 at threshold between Sears and the mall), could I then be in violation if the main entrance to the mall is still posted 30.06? Seems to me if you're not going to post every entrance, then over some reasonable amount of time I could easily forget that another entrance was posted or even assume "hey, the mall must have new pro-gun owners who took down the signs".

Curious what others think of - as Charles puts it - this "fact pattern".

To my way of thinking, a business should be required to notify you legally under 30.06 for EACH and EVERY entrance to the premises. Previous notifications should be null and void upon subsequent visits. In a nutshell, if you don't post every entrance, then you leave a legal loophole for CHL holders to always enter through the unposted entrance. I realize this may not be the way a judge or jury would interpret the statute, but it sure make sense to me

Also wondering if merely reading that a certain place is posted 30.06 here or on http://www.texas3006.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is enough to prove "notification"? I would think not because neither website is "notifying" me within confines of the 30.06 statute.

I doubt there's much chance of any of this stuff actually happening, but does make for interesting legal "what if" mind game.

Neither this website, nor the texas3006 website has the authority to notify you of the status of non-related locations. The notice must come from "...the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner..." (PC 30.06(b))

I would have the same opinion regarding oral notification -- how long is that good for? Seems like there should be some "statute of limitations" for that, too. (I was once told oral notification was valid forever.)

[chasfm11]

Overall, this situation sort of ticks me off. I've been to Grapevine Mills Mall twice, each time entering through J.C. Penney. I looked, saw no sign, and proceeded inside and then into the mall. Now I find out I may have put myself at sort level of regulatory risk, thanks to the sloppy (or intentional) posting policy of the mall owners.

Dear mall owners, if you don't want my business - fine. At least have the cajones to tell me.

I respectfully disagree. The Grapevine Mills owners can do as they please. They are not the problem. It is the Grapevine police and their willingness to arrest based on an invalid sign. I could make up all sorts of invalid situations around other parts of the the Texas penal code and, if I called them, they'd laugh at me for trying to twist the rules. It is Grapevine PD policy that is twisting the Mall situation.

I've given serious thought to going to the chief of police in Grapevine and asking him point blank if his officers attempted to do other invalid enforcement of the TPC. Don't hand me the "spirit and intent" of the Code. It is black and white. Of course, the Grapevine LEOs who sit on 121 with their radar on automatic are violating the spirit and intent but that doesn't seem to count. (and no, I've not be stopped or cited by Grapevine.) I watched a motor cycle officer this past weekend laser every Southbound vehicle on 121 at Hall Johnson. This is not intended as LEO bashing. I know some of the folks in Grapevine and they are good people. The problem is when organizations don't have a good foundation in principles, aberrations start to creep into procedures and suddenly it is like MD or D.C. where LE pretty much does what it wants and to heck with what the laws say.

[A-R]

Overall, this situation sort of ticks me off. I've been to Grapevine Mills Mall twice, each time entering through J.C. Penney. I looked, saw no sign, and proceeded inside and then into the mall. Now I find out I may have put myself at sort level of regulatory risk, thanks to the sloppy (or intentional) posting policy of the mall owners.

Dear mall owners, if you don't want my business - fine. At least have the cajones to tell me.

@VMaxer, first of all as always but especially important in posts such as these I AM NOT A LAWYER.

But I think you may be reading a bit too much into this scenario. Remember the phrase that Charles uses often - "fact pattern". In the fact pattern you present above, you have never been given effective notice under PC 30.06 that entry to premises with a gun is prohibited. In order for you to be "at risk" (at least, more "at risk" than normal) the prosecution would have to prove that you were given effective notice. Even if there is a valid 30.06 sign at another entrance, if they cannot prove you ever used that entrance and cannot prove they ever gave you effective notice by other means (orally or in writing on a card, ticket stub, pamphlet, etc) then it seems you should be OK. Of course, there is still the matter of proving your innocence to a LEO, a prosecutor, or ultimately a judge or jury.

The grey area seems to be what if you were at some point in the past given effective notice but then you returned at some later time and were not again given effective notice. Basically, what is the shelf life of the initial effective notice under PC 30.06 ?