Finger Off The Trigger - Sacred Cow In Need Of Butchering

[pbwalker]

http://www.warriortalknews.com/2011/01/ ... ering.html

I suggest that students of the art look at these so-called theories for themselves and test them. Open your minds and your eyes. It is far better to kill a sacred cow, than it is to worship one.

[aardwolf]

Sacred cows are Hindu, right? So, if he is shot by a student with their finger on the trigger, would that be Karma?

[srothstein]

From what I read, I cannot disagree 100% with him. The question is not whether or not someone should keep their finger off the trigger, but when he should put it on the trigger. Do you only put your finger on the trigger when you have decided to shoot? Or do you put it on the trigger when you are pointing the weapon at the suspect?

Obviously, as the officer in Austin just learned the hard way, keeping the finger off the trigger when you are moving up on a building to search it is a very good idea. But discussing exactly when to put your finger on the trigger is also a good idea.

FWIW, I was taught to put my finger on the trigger when I was on target, not just when i had decided to shoot.

[gringop]

Good old Gabe Suarez. If the writing isn't controversial, it's probably not Gabe.

From the article,
"To reiterate. I am advocating the finger off the trigger as a default position."
Also,
"A department’s liability averse policy is not even of marginal interest to me."

What is of marginal interest to Gabe is keeping his fans stirred up and convinced that he alone has a realistic grasp of what a true "warrior" does.

Sorry Gabe, but the instructors I have trained under have been in more gun fights than you and don't advocate searching with finger on the trigger. They also don't discount the startle response and the interlimb response based on single example samples where they didn't cause problems.

To be realistic, if the .312 second delay from me starting with finger off the trigger means that I get shot, then my mistakes began long before the shot got fired.

I don't think I'll be taking Gabe's advice on this one.

Gringop

[pbwalker]

Sorry Gabe, but the instructors I have trained under have been in more gun fights than you and don't advocate searching with finger on the trigger.

I don't think he is either...

To reiterate. I am advocating the finger off the trigger as a default position. In other words, unless there is a better place for it, the finger will be indexed along side the frame of the firearm. This is where it would normally be when moving or generally covering a danger area. But when approaching a specific danger point, or challenging or covering a human adversary at gun point (only a fool covers from low ready) the finger should be touching the trigger to reduce your reaction time, and thus increase your safety.

[OldCannon]

[quote But when approaching a specific danger point, or challenging or covering a human adversary at gun point (only a fool covers from low ready) the finger should be touching the trigger to reduce your reaction time, and thus increase your safety.[/quote]

ok, then he's just lawyering the words.

The test is simple:
1) Are my sights definitely on the target?
2) Is there no reasonable chance that I would hit an innocent bystander?
3) Am I absolutely ready to maim, injure, or kill what I am pointing at?
4) Is the target is a genuine threat at this moment?

If "Yes" to all of those, then I'm pretty certain _I_ would have my finger touching the trigger too.

[apostate]

I think I'm missing the point.

If he's suggesting that it's acceptable to have my finger on the trigger because some a threat might suddenly appear out of nowhere, then I disagree. Unless I have an absolute guarantee that innocent people (or fur people) are not going to stare down that muzzle, I believe it would be irresponsible for me to have my finger on the trigger when "approaching a specific danger point" or potential unknown threat.

On the other hand, if he's suggesting it's acceptable to have my finger on the trigger when my sights are on target, even if I haven't made the decision whether to shoot the target (again) right now, then I agree. However, I don't think that viewpoint makes hamburger out of sacred cows, because that's what I was taught 15-20 years ago. Even to the point of taking up slack, or allowing the trigger to reset after a shot, the finger can be on the trigger without committing to fire (again) at the target.

[Vecco]

We saw how well the finger on the trigger work for that Oakland officer who drew his gun and shot and killed the guy by accident because he drew with the finger on the trigger. I will stick with safty first and “on target on trigger”, “off target off trigger”.

[The Annoyed Man]

Well, unlike Gabe, who often does make sense to me but just not in my particular paradigm, I don't claim to be a warrior. I'm not a professional fighter. I'm a fat, gimpy, older guy who avoids trouble like the plague and can usually recognize it from a long way off. If my own death is the result of making sure that I don't shoot an innocent or myself because of a theoretical .3 second delay, I already know where I'm headed so I'm ok with that.

[CompVest]

Well, unlike Gabe, who often does make sense to me but just not in my particular paradigm, I don't claim to be a warrior. I'm not a professional fighter. I'm a fat, gimpy, older guy who avoids trouble like the plague and can usually recognize it from a long way off. If my own death is the result of making sure that I don't shoot an innocent or myself because of a theoretical .3 second delay, I already know where I'm headed so I'm ok with that.

[jamisjockey]

I'm sorry, no. Officer safety does not trump public safety. While he makes great points about reaction time, the possiblity of the public being shot on accident to possibly preserve a little officer safety is unacceptable.

OH, and here's some great finger on the trigger videos....from trained "professionals".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDfNV9bJoSg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ain2by4Fums" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycTwaROa ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[gigag04]

I've seen startle response = unintended firing first hand. No amount of blogging rhetoric can tell me it isn't an issue. In earlier levels of development, I also shot my roommate in the back of the head with a sim round from point blank. I was tunnel visioned on an armed threat active shooter, and engaged without considering my surroundings - had my finger been off the trigger, I couldve seen him crossing my lane of fire as we moved into the room and let him take the shot. I was ancy and purchased some contact with the trigger. And I pretend killed my roommate because of it.


Through many hours of training I have developed what works for me. I have learned from my mistakes and others, and that article discounts most of these first hand lessons.

[Warhammer]

Suarez is a cad, a criminal and a generally disreputable person. He bans anyone from his forum who dares to disagree with him or who does not sycophantically sing the praises of every product he sells. He will brook no honest discourse or criticism of himself, his "tactics" or whatever product he is currently pimping. Even if he summarily slammed a product right up until he began to sell it, he will then reverse his opinions and completely quash anyone who agrees with his previous (pre-salespimp) opinions. The man has proven time and again, from his convictions for Worker's Compensation fraud, money laundering and grand theft, to his dishonest sales tactics and high-handed running of his forum, that he has no integrity. He disgusts me with his misapplied Biblical quotes, insinuations of battles that he has never fought, and constant fear mongering. His writings are intended more to garner himself attention and promote his "training" than to educate or inform the reader.

[MoJo]

Warhammer, tell us how you really feel. BTW