.30-40 Krag? NOW WITH PICS!

[MrDrummy]

Was over at a buddy's house tonight, and he says "Come take a look at this. I think you'll find it interesting."

He had an old Spanish-American War era .30-40 Krag rifle. It was beautiful to my eye, and awesome to hold. I wish that the story ended with him giving it to me as an early Christmas present, but alas, it was not to be.

I'm not a rifle guy at all (one day, maybe,) so I have a few questions. Are these rare rifles? Are they a dime a dozen? Should I take it out and fire it at the shooting range? Ammo hard to come by? Anyone know more than I can dig up on the internet?

I'm sure I'll need to go dig up a bit more information on this thing before y'all will be able to tell me anything, so shoot me details I should be looking for. I didn't get to handle it long enough...

Thanks!

[Thane]

There are a few different versions of the Krag. There are a decent amount of Krags floating about; unfortunately, most of them have been sporterized, some so badly as to be termed "bubba-ed." What was a cheap military surplus rifle at one point has become a rather collectible firearm, if it's in original condition.

If it's a carbine, beware fakes. When certain folks found out the carbines were more desireable than the long rifles, they started fabricating carbines out of the rifles, then selling them as originals. From what I understand, there are now several times the number of "carbines" floating around than were actually produced.
That had a bit of an unintended side-effect; now, due to the chopping, original condition long rifles are ALSO rather desireable, and are much harder to fake.

If the rifle IS a sporterization or a faked carbine, it's still an excellent rifle. While the .30-40 is not on par with the .30-06, it can be quite an effective big-game cartridge, if used by a competant hunter, and it outstrips the venerable .30-30 in performance. Judging from Hornady's loading manual, it falls right neatly into the gap between .30-30 and .300 Savage. For short to medium-range, it's a light-recoiling round that can take deer, black bear, and even elk with proper shot placement.

I have no idea as to your friend's rifle's value. If it's a sporterization, value depends largely on the quality of the job, but I'd hazard around $150 (barrel and stock both cut) to $300 (stock cut, but all metalwork is intact, and not drilled/tapped for scope). If it's a faked carbine, maybe $300. If it's an original... depending on the model, scarcity, all-original parts, and the condition, the value can range anywhere from $400 to over $12,000.

[Thane]

Just re-read my post and realized I didn't answer a few key questions you had...

Regardless of whether the rifle is sporterized/bubba-ed/faked, I'd say shoot it, UNLESS:
1) The rifle turns out to be some uber-rare variant
2) The rifle turns out to be mint-condion
3) The rifle has been bubba-ed so badly it's no longer safe to fire. While rare, this sort of bungling, as in any field, has happened. (and I've done it myself, although never to a firearm. Yep, that's what happened to that one alarm clock... )

Ammuntion for the Krag is not terribly hard to come by. Several of the major manufacturers produce it, but because it's not a high-volume selling item, it's more expensive. Finding a retailer that carries it can be iffy, as well. I know Sportsman's Warehouse carries the ammo, but I don't see an online catalog for them.
Cabela's lists the ammo for about $21 a box (Remington PSP).
I'm sure there's other retailers that list it as well, but those two are what immediately come to mind.

While factory ammuntion is not prohibitively expensive, it's still cheaper to handload your own ammo. Dies and brass are VERY easy to come by, and it takes standard .308 diameter bullets. Cabela's, Sportsman's Warehouse, Graf's Brass, and Midway USA all carry supplies for loading it.

[jimlongley]

Back when I was a kid you could buy Krags at Numrich arms for a few bucks each. There was a large bin inside the door with thirty or fourty of them sticking up, you just went through and grabbed the one you liked - all the same price.

Actually there were several similar bins with all kinds of guns in them.

Lots of Krags were bought and converted to carbines or sporterized in the 60s and I hunted with several people who had them.

Kind of funny, I took my first deer with a .30-40, but it was not a Krag, it was an 1895 Winchester. The neat thing was that I used the same ammo as a couple of the guys I hunted with.

[MrDrummy]

I'm going to try to get ahold of this rifle and snap a few photos of it.

Maybe you guys can tell me what you think about it, since, like I said, I'm just not a rifle guy at all. It was in pretty decent condition, though.

I'll try to get some of these up here.

[cloudcroft]

Original unaltered/unsporterized (AKA, not butchered) Krags are harder and harder to find nowadays.

If that one is in original condition, I'd think more than twice about any modifications.

Power-wise, it's in the .303 British class.

It wasn't that great in Cuba against the Spaniards with their Mausers, nor against the Filipinos in the Philippine American War (AKA, Philippine Insurrection) and especially not very effective against the Moros in Mindanao and islands of the Sulu Archipelago such as Jolo...but it was a very finely-made gun known for its glassy-smooth action.

-- John D.

[KBCraig]

It wasn't that great in Cuba against the Spaniards with their Mausers, nor against the Filipinos in the Philippine American War (AKA, Philippine Insurrection) and especially not very effective against the Moros in Mindanao and islands of the Sulu Archipelago such as Jolo...but it was a very finely-made gun known for its glassy-smooth action.

Have you seen The Wind and the Lion?

One of my favorite brief battle scenes: after a U.S. citizen is kidnapped, the Marines double-time through town with their Krags to the pasha's palace. Facing a puzzled palace guard, they kneel in ranks and fire, then fix bayonets and charge.

It's a good movie, although a highly fictionalized account of a real incident. For instance, the abductees were transformed from a man and his son, to a woman and her two children.

But other than that, I'm sure it's factual.

Kevin

[charlie]

That movie was great. This event happened during Teddy Roosevelt's time. Teddy decided that it was America's time to demonstrate that we had arrived as a world power.

The Marines marched down the streets of embassy row in a show of force in full view of each embassy. It was a good way to show the major powers that the US would not tolerate the mistreatment of it's citizens and had the power and resolve to act forcefully.

Wish ol Teddy was here.

[Thane]

Power-wise, it's in the .303 British class.

It wasn't that great in Cuba against the Spaniards with their Mausers, nor against the Filipinos in the Philippine American War (AKA, Philippine Insurrection) and especially not very effective against the Moros in Mindanao and islands of the Sulu Archipelago such as Jolo...but it was a very finely-made gun known for its glassy-smooth action.

-- John D.

I'm gonna have to disagree on the power estimate. Looking in my Hornady loading manual, it appears to be about 200 feet per second slower than the .303 in pretty much every bullet weight. It's still an acceptable big-game hunting cartridge, but it just doesn't have the same range as the .303 British, .308 Winchester, and .30-06 Springfield. I'd put the .30-40 not even with the .303, but between it and the .300 Savage, another venerable and still-potent hunting round.

Power aside, though, the main problem with the Krag was the rifle, not the power. After all, the .30-40 has killed many elk, which are many times the size of a human. But even fatal wounds are not, as a general rule, immediately fatal; adrenaline can cause a man or animal to keep going through pain. Not all shots fired in battle or in hunting are heart/head shots.
The Krag's main failing, from what I've read, was that it was slow to load. The Mausers of the time had stripper clip guides, for loading five rounds into the magazine at once; the Krag had to have each round placed into its box magazine individually. The Mausers were also using rimless cartridges (7x57 Mauser), as opposed to the rimmed .30-40, which would hang up and jam in the magazine if improperly loaded. Thus, the Spaniards could just jam five rounds in and crank them off in short order, while the US soldier had to take special care in loading his rifle, lest it rim-lock on him. Had the Krags possessed speed-loading capabilities, and had the .30-40 been rimless, I think Teddy Roosevelt's opinion of the rifle would have been radically different.

Just my $0.02.

[MrDrummy]

Ok-- finally got the pics of this baby.

Overall, this thing just needs a good cleaning/oiling, something that I'm getting on tonight. There are no cracks in the wood, and everything still feels tight and together. The bore looks good, but I'll know a lot more after I get it cleaned up. Looks to have good lands and grooves. Also looks to have the original sling.

If any of you know anything about these markings or stamps, let me know, as I know VERY little! Also, if there are other things you'd like to see on the rifle, let me know, and I'll attempt to get a good shot!

Thanks!

[JKDubb]

All I can see is cool white boxes with little red x's in them...

They look like the same ones I see everywhere so I would guess that they are a dime-a-dozen.




I could not resist

[KBCraig]

Wow!

Be very careful cleaning it. And by "cleaning", I mean limit yourself to wiping off dust, and replacing old oil with new oil. Don't use any chemicals on it.

That's an excellent example. Don't let Bubba get close to it!

Kevin

[KBCraig]

BTW, this was one of the last Krag rifles made. The S/N dates to 1903; they stopped at 484000.

[jimlongley]

The "I-9" might be an indicator of its issue. Can't be 9th Infantry because that didn't exist until 1918, but it could be I Troop, 9th Cavalry.

I believe that the current "I Troop" is the historical group that does re-enactments and as such would not have originally issued this rifle.

This is also a rifle, as opposed to a carbine, and the 9th was equipped primarily with the carbine (at least the mounted soldiers.)

The original I Troop was assigned to Fort DuChesne, Utah from 1899 to 1913 affter the Spanish War and may have had rifles issued for unmounted troops during that period.

My great-grandfather was an officer of the 9th at one point in his career, and was commanding a detail of I Troop which was attacked by hostiles, the action resulting in a Medal of Honor for Sgt. Augustus Walley.

[JKDubb]

WOW is right! That there is a nice specimen.