Schools

[Big Tuna]

There's recent talk about schools, so I thought it might be interesting to talk about some hypotheticals.
<soapbox> I know the Bill of Rights says "shall not be infringed" but Straus and his cronies made sure our human rights shall be infringed, so let's answer based on current Texas law, not what the law should be and would be if Straus and cronies cared one iota about human rights or the lives and safety of good guys. </soapbox>

1.) If Yale University ($16.5 billion endowment) owned a shopping mall in Texas would it be off limits to good guys as a school?

2.) Would it make a difference if it was Rice University (a Texas school) that owned the shopping mall?

3.) Would it matter if it was a conference center instead of a shopping mall? A theater?

4.) Would it matter if it was a pro soccer stadium instead of a shopping mall? Assume you're attending a concert or something else that's not a sports event.

5.) Would it matter if the school was the majority owner but not the sole owner of the property?

6.) Would it matter if the stadium had a roof? If it didn't have a roof?

I don't think there's one right set of answers to these questions. I think the first one is pretty black and white and they get more and more gray. I'm interested in hearing what people think. Even more interested why you think that way so please share your reasons.

[barres]

First of all I am not a lawyer. This is just my reading/interpretation of Texas law.

There's recent talk about schools, so I thought it might be interesting to talk about some hypotheticals.
<soapbox> I know the Bill of Rights says "shall not be infringed" but Straus and his cronies made sure our human rights shall be infringed, so let's answer based on current Texas law, not what the law should be and would be if Straus and cronies cared one iota about human rights or the lives and safety of good guys. </soapbox>

1.) If Yale University ($16.5 billion endowment) owned a shopping mall in Texas would it be off limits to good guys as a school?

Texas law makes no distinction of whether or not the school is a "Texas" school. University of Phoenix has facilities across the nation and in Texas. Possession of a firearm on school premises is forbidden.

2.) Would it make a difference if it was Rice University (a Texas school) that owned the shopping mall?

None whatsoever.

3.) Would it matter if it was a conference center instead of a shopping mall? A theater?

Nope. The premises of a school are off-limits. The law doesn't distinguish between buildings used for educational purposes or non-educational purposes. It just says the premises of a school.

4.) Would it matter if it was a pro soccer stadium instead of a shopping mall? Assume you're attending a concert or something else that's not a sports event.

Here's where it gets tricky. This is reflected more in your last question. The law defines premises, as used to forbid carry, to be a building or portion of a building Is a stadium without a roof a building? I would say not (in a case like your hypothetical concert, because in my mind a structure has to have a roof to be a building), but if any pro sporting event or any school event is going on there, it is off-limits, for sure.

5.) Would it matter if the school was the majority owner but not the sole owner of the property?

I have never heard of a school being part owner of a property, except in a case where the school only leases/uses part of a building/property. I think control of the property would be the key here. If the school has control, it's off limits. If the school has offices and classrooms on the second floor of an office building, but Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe, Contractors has their offices on the first floor, then only the second floor, and not the first, would be off-limits.

6.) Would it matter if the stadium had a roof? If it didn't have a roof?

Read my answer to question #4. This is strictly my opinion.

I don't think there's one right set of answers to these questions. I think the first one is pretty black and white and they get more and more gray. I'm interested in hearing what people think. Even more interested why you think that way so please share your reasons.

A good healthy discussion of things like this is always good, as long as we can keep things civil. You may have looked at things from a perspective I never considered, or vice versa. You may not agree with my answers, and that is fine by me.

[boba]

IANAL, IMHO. ETC. I like barres' use of color but I'll do blue.

1.) If Yale University ($16.5 billion endowment) owned a shopping mall in Texas would it be off limits to good guys as a school?
I say no. A shopping mall is a shopping mall. It doesn't matter if it's owned by a school, a church, or a for-profit company.

2.) Would it make a difference if it was Rice University (a Texas school) that owned the shopping mall?
No.

3.) Would it matter if it was a conference center instead of a shopping mall? A theater?
No.

4.) Would it matter if it was a pro soccer stadium instead of a shopping mall? Assume you're attending a concert or something else that's not a sports event.
Maybe. Is the stadium on campus? Does the school have teams that play there? If the answer to both questions is no, then it's not automatically off limits during a concert. However, both Yale and Rice are private schools, so they could post 30.06 signs that are valid.

5.) Would it matter if the school was the majority owner but not the sole owner of the property?
Maybe. I need more details on the other owners, what the property is used for, etc.

6.) Would it matter if the stadium had a roof? If it didn't have a roof?
Yes. I think a building has a roof and walls. A fence, gazebo and courtyard are structures but they're not buildings the way I see it.

[srothstein]

I think there are two points that would need to be considered before any answers could be given. Where is the property (mall, conference center, or stadium) and how is it identified?

If the mall is in a separate location from the school and is not marked as being part of the school, I don't think it would count as premises of a school. For example, UT's $20 billion endowment is probably invested in some real estate. It may or may not own all or part of a mall. Let's pick Barton Creek Mall in Austin as the example. It is away from the school and has no identifying markings saying it is a school. If it was owned by the UT, I do not think ti would be considered premises of the school.

But, the AT&T conference center is located on the UT main campus in Austin. I would think it is considered part of the premises due to its location.

Then there is the legal question of whether or not the endowment foundation is the same as the school. that also might make a difference.

I am still a firm believer that we need a bill that adds a definition to section 46.01. It should read:

"In this chapter, the terms 'school', 'educational institution', and "school or educational institution' means any building housing classrooms a public, private, or charter school that teaches classes in grades kindergarten through grade 12. "

That would clear up quite a bit of the confusion over these types of questions. And, if we publicize ti to be eliminating things like driving schools, we might get it passed without someone noticing that it would allow campus carry at college.

[barres]

But, the AT&T conference center is located on the UT main campus in Austin. I would think it is considered part of the premises due to its location.

Location is not always a part of the answer, either. My church owns a student center (a building in any sense of the word) in the middle of the local university campus. I carry there every time I go, because it is not school premises, even though it is smack in the middle of campus. It is the premises of a church that does not post per PC30.06.

[barres]

IANAL, IMHO. ETC. I like barres' use of color but I'll do blue.

1.) If Yale University ($16.5 billion endowment) owned a shopping mall in Texas would it be off limits to good guys as a school?
I say no. A shopping mall is a shopping mall. It doesn't matter if it's owned by a school, a church, or a for-profit company.

2.) Would it make a difference if it was Rice University (a Texas school) that owned the shopping mall?
No.

3.) Would it matter if it was a conference center instead of a shopping mall? A theater?
No.

4.) Would it matter if it was a pro soccer stadium instead of a shopping mall? Assume you're attending a concert or something else that's not a sports event.
Maybe. Is the stadium on campus? Does the school have teams that play there? If the answer to both questions is no, then it's not automatically off limits during a concert. However, both Yale and Rice are private schools, so they could post 30.06 signs that are valid.

5.) Would it matter if the school was the majority owner but not the sole owner of the property?
Maybe. I need more details on the other owners, what the property is used for, etc.

6.) Would it matter if the stadium had a roof? If it didn't have a roof?
Yes. I think a building has a roof and walls. A fence, gazebo and courtyard are structures but they're not buildings the way I see it.

I understand your points about malls, convention centers, etc. I guess it depends on how obvious the school's ownership/control is. If it was called the Rice University Mall or the Yale University Convention Center, that would be a whole lot different than the same building with no mention of any affiliation with or ownership by a school.