Myth of Center Mass Hits - Article

[The Annoyed Man]

We can cherry pick the data all we want to justify what we carry, but that is exactly what it is—"justifying" or "rationalizing." If you don't cherry pick, you'll see a very clear bias toward the effectiveness of larger calibers. And if you can't make it larger, then make it fast and make it powerful enough to throw a bullet of sufficient mass. That is the rationalization for the 9mm as the minimum for me.

I'm somewhat inclined to agree with you, TAM, but I think we all tend to be too finicky when it comes to picking what calibers constitute "large." I tend to categorize pistol calibers into two slots: 1) End The Fight Calibers, and 2) Get Away From The Threat Calibers.

1) End The Fight: Calibers that, statistically, can stop an attacker's threat with 5 or less hits. That's 45ACP, 40S&W, 9MM, 357SIG, and FN 5.7.
2) Get Away From The Fight: Calibers that, statistically, have a poor record of stopping an attacker, but will deter most attackers when struck or fired at: .380, 32ACP, .22LR, 22 Mag, and even tasers (should I add "slingshot" in here? )

"End the fight calibers" versus "get away" calibers makes sense to me. The 9mm, .357SIG, and FN 5.7 are all examples of what I meant above when I wrote: "...if you can't make it larger, then make it fast and make it powerful enough to throw a bullet of sufficient mass..." None of the "get away" calibers are capable of either A) throwing a large heavy bullet at sufficient velocity, or B) throwing a bullet of sufficient weight at large speeds. The FN 5.7 actually only makes it into the list because it's light bullet is traveling at "hyper-velocity" for a pistol cartridge.

[tbrown]

Head shots may not be fatal either

That's important if you're shooting to kill. Maybe less important if you're shooting to stop.

[gigag04]

Head shots may not be fatal either

That's important if you're shooting to kill. Maybe less important if you're shooting to stop.

It didn't stop the officer in the video?

[The Annoyed Man]

Head shots may not be fatal either

That's important if you're shooting to kill. Maybe less important if you're shooting to stop.

It didn't stop the officer in the video?

That guy has stones the size of boxcars. I particularly liked his finishing statement:

Why I survived? Because I took it to him. I took that fight to him, and I won that fight is why I surived. I'm not going to sit there and let luck or anything else determine my fate. I'm going to sit there and fight, and that's what I think everybody should do.....'cause it's your life, and your business, and you need to take care of your own business.

That guy is a stud, and he's right on. I'll bet you that's one cop who has no problem with lawful CHL.

[speedsix]

...a true Blue Knight...

[speedsix]

We can cherry pick the data all we want to justify what we carry, but that is exactly what it is—"justifying" or "rationalizing." If you don't cherry pick, you'll see a very clear bias toward the effectiveness of larger calibers. And if you can't make it larger, then make it fast and make it powerful enough to throw a bullet of sufficient mass. That is the rationalization for the 9mm as the minimum for me.

I'm somewhat inclined to agree with you, TAM, but I think we all tend to be too finicky when it comes to picking what calibers constitute "large." I tend to categorize pistol calibers into two slots: 1) End The Fight Calibers, and 2) Get Away From The Threat Calibers.

1) End The Fight: Calibers that, statistically, can stop an attacker's threat with 5 or less hits. That's 45ACP, 40S&W, 9MM, 357SIG, and FN 5.7.
2) Get Away From The Fight: Calibers that, statistically, have a poor record of stopping an attacker, but will deter most attackers when struck or fired at: .380, 32ACP, .22LR, 22 Mag, and even tasers (should I add "slingshot" in here? )

A bad guy without the will to fight can be just as discouraged by a .22 as by a .45. Many perps don't want to have holes put in them that require a trip to the hospital, even if they have a chance of surviving.

The real problem is this: You don't know who you're dealing with until the fight is engaged. Therefore, Category 1 calibers should always be preferred (I have a Walther PP in .32ACP sitting in my safe (belonged to my father), I can't even imagine how it could penetrate two layers of clothing, much less a person)

...for us old men, how 'bout addin' .38Spl, .357Mag, .41Mag, .44Spl, .44Mag to the Category 1 list? Now it's all better...

[karder]

(I have a Walther PP in .32ACP sitting in my safe (belonged to my father), I can't even imagine how it could penetrate two layers of clothing, much less a person)

I swear, people are bigger today than they were in our grandfather's day. It sounds crazy, but I just know my grandpa was not dealing with a lot of 300 pound fellows. I can't walk down the street without seeing 250-350lb guys strolling around. 32ACP would be okay for a 130lb guy, but these days we have to carry bigger calibers because there are so many big guys running around. Must be all the Flintstone vitamins we give 'em as kids.

[sjfcontrol]

(I have a Walther PP in .32ACP sitting in my safe (belonged to my father), I can't even imagine how it could penetrate two layers of clothing, much less a person)

I swear, people are bigger today than they were in our grandfather's day. It sounds crazy, but I just know my grandpa was not dealing with a lot of 300 pound fellows. I can't walk down the street without seeing 250-350lb guys strolling around. 32ACP would be okay for a 130lb guy, but these days we have to carry bigger calibers because there are so many big guys running around. Must be all the Flintstone vitamins we give 'em as kids.

More likely all the Big Macs!

[MoJo]

(I have a Walther PP in .32ACP sitting in my safe (belonged to my father), I can't even imagine how it could penetrate two layers of clothing, much less a person)

I swear, people are bigger today than they were in our grandfather's day.

Must be all the Flintstone vitamins we give 'em as kids.

Nope it's all those triple meat, triple cheese burgers folks eat these days!

[The Annoyed Man]

(I have a Walther PP in .32ACP sitting in my safe (belonged to my father), I can't even imagine how it could penetrate two layers of clothing, much less a person)

I swear, people are bigger today than they were in our grandfather's day. It sounds crazy, but I just know my grandpa was not dealing with a lot of 300 pound fellows. I can't walk down the street without seeing 250-350lb guys strolling around. 32ACP would be okay for a 130lb guy, but these days we have to carry bigger calibers because there are so many big guys running around. Must be all the Flintstone vitamins we give 'em as kids.

People ARE bigger today. Part of that is that we've become obese—not everybody, but a much larger percentage than ever before. The other part is that we eat more red meat today than we did generations ago, so that we are bulkier than we used to be. Plus, no telling how growth hormones in the meat we eat cause us to be larger than previous generations. It's not just that. Our females seem to be nearing "breeding age" younger and younger. Part of that is the influence of the culture on clothing choices, but also a large part of it I believe is due to diet.

[speedsix]

...ask someone who's been in law enforcement for the last 20 years...he'll tell you there's been a big change in attitude and mindset in thugs...they're more violent and hair-triggered...more likely to hurt someone than 20years ago...they don't fold up when shot like they used to...meaner and more willing to keep on coming...attitudes aren't anything like when I was a cop...and people still respected/feared the uniform...these days, you're not likely to make them want to stop...you're more likely to have to STOP them...by physically incapacitating them...

[unhappycamper]

I don't believe today's gangs are tougher than the Vikings, Vandals and Visigoths.

[Heartland Patriot]

...ask someone who's been in law enforcement for the last 20 years...he'll tell you there's been a big change in attitude and mindset in thugs...they're more violent and hair-triggered...more likely to hurt someone than 20years ago...they don't fold up when shot like they used to...meaner and more willing to keep on coming...attitudes aren't anything like when I was a cop...and people still respected/feared the uniform...these days, you're not likely to make them want to stop...you're more likely to have to STOP them...by physically incapacitating them...

How many criminals today are whacked out of their minds on crack cocaine and methamphetamine, among other drugs? The Nazis figured out that someone who was high on certain drugs could take a lot more hits and keep moving (at least for a while)...also, a cousin of mine told us that sappers (like suicide bombers) in Vietnam could take rounds and keep coming because they were so high they just didn't feel it. His Marine unit had shotguns for dropping the legs out from under them before the sappers could make it to the perimeter...all these substances, which are more prevalent than ever before it seems, have to play into criminals being able to operate in a more violent manner for longer, than in "days of old"

[kragluver]

Our great grandfathers learned that the hard way in the Philippines vs the Moros.