Shooting from the passenger seat

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TX Rancher
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Shooting from the passenger seat

Post by TX Rancher »

Yesterday I decided to play hooky from my chores and spend some time on the range. I only had a few hours to spare, so I determined I was going to spend the time on training and no plinking.

One of the sets I worked on was firing from inside a car. The car was my 96 Ford Bronco, so it’s relatively representative of today’s SUV’s in size. The handgun was a G-19 in an IHL belt slide holster, so it has a cant to it, and no straps for retention. I really like straight drop holsters due to their speed of presentation, but when you sit down in a car, they can be hard to draw from without having to do some contortions.

Safety gear included hearing protection, long sleeved shirt, and glasses. For hearing protection, I was using a good set of headphone style protectors in addition to a set of ear plugs. The sound pressure level inside a car can get rather high compared to the open air of a range. To help reduce the level, I also open all windows, including the big one on the tailgate.

The shirt was for protection from hot brass and inside a vehicle, brass can bounce around with a fair amount of velocity and getting hit in the eye could be bad, hence the glasses.

It’s also a good idea to open the heater/air-conditioning vents and turn the fan on high. It will help with exhausting the fumes out of the vehicle.

It had been awhile since I had practiced “car shooting�, but I was pleased to find my times and accuracy were still acceptable (at least to me, you fast movers would have laughed yourselves to death no doubt :grin: ).

Since it seems I’m always the one driving, I usually practice from the driver’s seat. But to round the training out, I moved over to the passenger side to finish up the set. Assume 12:00 is directly in front of the car, so 6:00 is out the rear. It was a bad day for my arthritis and I was not capable of engaging targets past about 2:30 without leaning way forward and sticking the weapon out the window.

In my mind, there’s two problems with that. One is the seatbelt in some vehicles will “lock-up� if you lean forward fast, and that would stop you from getting into the firing position. The second is sticking the weapon out the window could make weapons retention very problematic, especially if someone you didn’t see approached from the rear of the vehicle (multiple assailant attack).

To solve the problem, I would draw as normal with my right hand, and then transition the weapon to my left hand. It became readily apparent this was a good solution. The weapon stayed inside the vehicle (better chance at retention), and I could easily engage targets to ~5:00. The “time penalty� was in my mind acceptable since it vastly improved weapons retention (weapon stayed in the vehicle and the right hand was available to “repel boarders�).

The next time you practice shooting from a car (you do don’t you?) give it a try. I would be very interested in your results and comments.
Texasdoc
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Post by Texasdoc »

Hey TxRancher, that is one of the set-ups we use in a IDPA match a few months back.

I have to say its one of the hardest ones I have done as you said the brass is the major problem.

I like to practices shooting weak hand from both sides of the truck and I agree with you on the holster as you have seen my carry rig .

the other thing is a mag change ,its hard to do if you carry your spares in a back pocket ,so now I have a double open top style carrier .


next time your out at the range give me a call and we can set up a few other things and have some fun.


PS Bring the lovely wife out and I will have the Kahr loaded and ready for her again.

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flintknapper
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Post by flintknapper »

Sounds like good practice.

When I practice from a vehicle.. I always disconnect my seatbelt before engaging the target. I realize there may not be time in a real life situation, and that some vehicles have belts that close over you when you shut the door. At the very least...I like see everyone clear the shoulder belt for sake of added movement (time permitting).

On the passenger side I still shoot strong hand until I begin to stall at about 3:00, this is where I make the transition to weak hand. I prefer to shoot with the strong hand as much as possible in a disadvantaged position, only making a transition when absolutely necessary.

Your concern for retention is an excellent point. Your Bronco is pretty large and could easily conceal a person at your tailgate.

Also, I could stand crouched behind the tailgate (at the right rear taillight) and put you in a very weak tactical position. You probably have the high backed bucket seats and a swing-a-way mounted spare tire. It would be hard to engage anything past your 5 O'Clock as you already know. The reason I know this.. is that I have 90's model Bronco also.. and have looked at how I might be able to shoot from it.

In the 90's Bronco...I have room to move around and reposition myself, but if I get into the Land Cruiser things change dramatically, if (God forbid) I get caught in my '70 model Bronco 1/2 cab, well........I'm just dead meat. :sad:

We would all do well to take your suggestions and apply them to the constraints of our "daily drivers".

Thanks for a thought provoking post, I may go do a little vehicle practice today.
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austin
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Post by austin »

Good post.

This brings up a related question as to when you stay in the vehicle versus getting out.

I would want to exit the vehicle as soon as possible if something were about to go down or going down. In the vehicle, you have no cover, no concealment, no mobility, limited vision, and limited effective traversal for your weapon.

Granted, your average car jacker is not going to press his advantage by seeking cover or a blind spot, but the question still remains.
TX Rancher
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Post by TX Rancher »

Personally I would stay with the car until movement with the car was no longer possible and I saw no way to break it free. Then I would exit. But as long as movement was possible, I would stay with the car since it represents a fast escape and marginal cover.

Yes, I know bullets will pass through cars, but they still represent better protection then nothing but air.
Ranger+P+
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Post by Ranger+P+ »

In my line of work, I spend alot of time in a vehicle. From a personal protection standpoint, it is one of the only times you are vulnerable on so many levels. Since I have been in the business I have experienced 4 attacks in a vehicle, all of them I will never forget. I could go on and on about that but the bottom line is what I learned in those situations that might help you, the civilian. I want to relate a story that might be helpful on this topic:
Several trainers held a 1 day challenge for several operators about to deploy, I was invited among many others. It was a blind challenge, so no one knew the drills beforehand, all they told you was to bring your primary sidearm and rifle and plenty of ammo. Make a long story short, the day is drawing to a close and we are all pretty worn out, ready to get some dinner and hit the rack. The last drill was your standard vehicle escort. You would accompany your principle from his office to a waiting vehicle. We were issued simmunitions for this exercise, which really got me excited! The catch was, it was a 1 man detail--so you had to cover all your bases. Waiting in the war room for our turn at the drill, each guy that came back from it had this disgusted look on their face, obviously saying: I failed!! My turn came up and I readied myself. It was a simple set-up: accompany your principle from a building to a waiting Yukon parked about 15 yards away. That was it. I thought about it and said to the range master: Can I check the vehicle out first? He smiled and said "you are the first that has asked." I cautiously approached the vehicle, looking underneath and scanning the immediate area--nothing within 100 yards. I peered inside the tinted glass checking the back of the Yukon and saw what looked like blankets on the floorboard behind the backseat. I drew my simmunition Glock 19 and opened the door, as I reached to move the blanket, out from under it came a hand with a pistol. I put two rounds into the helmeted head of the role-player terrorist. I then proceeded to move the Yukon closer to my load-up area and picked up my cargo.
Afterwards, the range master told me me and one other guy were the only ones that passed that day--the rest had proceeded right into taking the principal into a waiting ambush. I wanted to tell you that story because I believe it has merit relating to the armed civilian. I have read many incidents of people being carjacked in their own cars not by people outside their car, but inside. Most of them ending up in homocide, rape or assault. when you approach your vehicle, do you scan not only around the immediate area of the vehicle, (underneath other cars) but also inside the car before you enter? It is not a common practice for most, but it needs to be. Hope this helps somebody, and I have added a link to an article about fighting from your vehicle from my "old training grounds" at Tactical Response, I also have some courses of fire for anybody who wants them that can keep you sharp in this area.

http://www.tacticalresponse.com/media/a ... ehicle.php
The final weapon is the Brain, all else is Supplemental.-John Steinbeck

SPEED/SURPRISE/VIOLENCE OF ACTION

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srothstein
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Post by srothstein »

I have a slightly different opinion on this than Ranger does, but it may be because of the difference in our jobs and work experience. My advice would not apply to someone in a personal protection job where there is a real threat to the principal.

First, I think most people who are victimized in cars by criminals the attack starts with the criminal outside the car. The victim is often actually attacked as they approach the car and not when they are in it. When the attack occurs inside the car, it is because the victim allowed the criminal entry. The best advice on this is preventative - always lock the car and never pick up hitchhikers or strangers.

Second, I would recommend having the person who is the passenger practice more than the driver. Again, in most cases, the driver should be using the mobility of the car to escape the danger zone, either forward or reverse. Thus, the passenger side shooting is critical to practice.

And my last comment is a point to remember. The side and back windows of a car are not as strong as the front windshield. if there is an attack from the rear, it might be better to turn around in the seat and shoot through the windows than to try to lean out the door to fire. This would also work out better with a driver trying to get out of the area since your head and arms would not be in danger by sticking out as he flees.

Preventing the opportunity first, situational awareness as you approach the car second, evading third, and repelling boarders as a last choice.

But, I am looking at it from the crazy point of view of being one who runs towards shooting sounds and wonders why others don't run away.
Steve Rothstein
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Post by Ranger+P+ »

It is true that people are rarely attacked inside their car than outside, the point I hope folks will take away from what I said is situational awareness as a lifestyle, when you leave work and are going to your car--keep some things in mind. Most folks feel safe in their cars--they tend to zone out..listen to the radio..talk on the cell phone..budget the checkbook..etc..we need to heighten our senses more when we are in our vehicles and traveling. The KISS principle in all things..Keep it Simple--lock the doors, stay alert, dont park in un-lighted areas, etc.. Situational awareness can nip so many bad situations in the bud before thet fester into a use of force scenario.

The link I gave was written by some great guys, who know their stuff about fighting for your life while in a vehicle, read it if you can.
The final weapon is the Brain, all else is Supplemental.-John Steinbeck

SPEED/SURPRISE/VIOLENCE OF ACTION

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fm2
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Post by fm2 »

Ranger+P+ wrote: Most folks feel safe in their cars--they tend to zone out..listen to the radio..talk on the cell phone..budget the checkbook..etc..we need to heighten our senses more when we are in our vehicles and traveling....... Situational awareness can nip so many bad situations in the bud before thet fester into a use of force scenario.

The link I gave was written by some great guys, who know their stuff about fighting for your life while in a vehicle, read it if you can.
People, Please, Please, Please, avoid task fixation while sitting in your car. Do not sit in the parking lot doors unlocked balancing your checkbook, diggin in your purse, phone up to your left ear blocking vision etc..... It is not a castle you are in, it's your car don't forget that.

Great link!
glocklvr
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Post by glocklvr »

something that needs to be considered about any car attack is that you have a very heavy hunk of metal at your disposal and in most cases it would be best to run rather than stay and fight but by the same token I also know that is not always an option so I make it a point to drive my own vehicle as much as possible so that I have the advantage of a gun cliped on the back of my passenger seat that is easy for me to access.
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TX Rancher
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Post by TX Rancher »

300shooter wrote: …the other thing is a mag change ,its hard to do if you carry your spares in a back pocket ,so now I have a double open top style carrier .
Sounds like the IDPA match would have been fun. You really need to get IDPA started at the Fayette Co range (hint...hint...hint :grin: ).

Yea, the clips in the back pocket just doesn’t work when you’re sitting in a car! Like you, that’s one of the reasons I switched to a belt carrier.

PS. Hope to catch you at the range soon. My wife and I enjoyed meeting and shooting with you.

flintknapper:

Your points are well taken. I’ll have to try removing the seatbelt and see what it does to my time. If for some reason I had to exit the vehicle, not having to mess with the belt would be handy…but then again, if I get a chance to rabbit, having the belt on helps with control for those fast direction changes :grin:

As for the right hand shooting on the passenger side, in my case it will probably depend on the range to the target. If it’s inside 20 yds I’ll probably go left handed. If outside that, and I don’t think there’s a chance of someone coming in from behind, I would probably go right hand for accuracy. But I think my default in the future will be left hand on the passenger side. The retention thing is a big issue to me…

Let me know how your vehicle practice goes. I think this would be a good topic for us to keep a running dialog on as folks try new things. I feel it’s just as important to know what didn’t work, and why, as to know what did work…
glocklvr wrote:

something that needs to be considered about any car attack is that you have a very heavy hunk of metal at your disposal and in most cases it would be best to run rather than stay and fight…
I find myself in complete agreement. Something tells me a couple thousand pound car moving at 10+ MPH would make major power factor in any league :grin:

Srothstein mentioned shooting through the back window, which is an option. But I think I would only rely on it if backing over the BG was not an option.

fm and Ranger, I agree with both of you. Checking before you get into the car should as much 2nd nature as press checking your weapon before you holster it.

And mentally falling asleep in the parking lot or at a stop light is a definite no-no.

But even folks that live in condition yellow can be blind-sided in normal society, hence I practice shooting from inside the car. The reality is stopping anyone from getting within 15 yrds of my vehicle is just not possible, nor socially acceptable. People crossing at a light will definitely get inside my comfort zone for example, and it’s not acceptable to draw down on them, or peel out to get away

If I need to go to guns in my vehicle, the BG(S) will probably be very close, so my concern about retention, and the desire to practice.
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