scenario, please advice

spider373 · Post by **spider373** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:03 pm

Hi,
I took my CHL class and filed my CHL application last week. So you know I am purty new. I have been reading some of posts in this forum as much as I can. Some of you are very knowledgable, indeed. I have learnt a lot. Yet, I still have questions. This one is simple. Please forgive me and give me link if you can, if the question has been asked before.

I am a first generation US citizen. Therefore, please understand if this question sounds like high school story.

I know I suppose to avoid and/or retreat to defuse the situation when possible. But I am afraid I might accidentally put myself and my family in a bad situation unknowingly(cultural background, wink, wink). Ok, here it is. Somehow, this one nasty person, with some of his friends around, does not like me and starts to provoke an incident. Of course I'd be nervous and scared and regreted and all that. But now I am there. As I father I want to keep calm and the last thing I want to do is to let the children feel helplessness. But the guy starts to approach while his buddies laugh and watch on. So close he even intentionally bumps and shove me while speaking insulting words.

I suppose I can put my hands on my concealed weapon (still concealed) and turn my strong side away from him and the other arm blocking/pointing to the guy and ask him to stop right there because I feel threatened. But this stance looks to me is the same as announcing that I am armed. If his buddy calls police before me and claiming I threaten them with my weapon (even though in fact I have not show my gun), or worse ...

But if I do not do this, he may think my thin built, comparing to him, is an easy fun target and continue on. Even my intention is to leave as fast as I possibly can, he may just press on harassing me and in a split of a second I might just find myself on the floor and hurt!

Well, the trouble is he (they) does not show deady intention or weapons, though he might have one. (It is easy to find out, isn't it ? But that is not what we CHL supposedly want, correct ?)

So what are my options ?

Thanks

Greg

TIN BENDER · Post by **TIN BENDER** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:24 pm

SPYDER, Glad you presented this to YOUR FORUM. I do not know what to tell you about this incident. I am looking forward to suggestions that will be presented to you probably real soon. I too am a new member,and I can assure you that the comments you will receive will steer you in the right direction. Be thankful we have Senior Members to set us all straight. I pray you are never put in harms way. You will gain confidence and knowledge about Texas CHL and feel more at ease with each visit here. Being a rational,adult,and responsableTexas CHL holder is a challenge I face each day. Learning Texas Law through this forum and it's members (IMHO) is the only way to mature and BE SAFE. I wish you well .
Again, I look forward to our fellow members for input on this matter.

bigdook · Post by **bigdook** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:26 pm

its also serious bodily harm, not just deadly force.

Stupid · Post by **Stupid** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:31 pm

Can't you just run away?

TIN BENDER · Post by **TIN BENDER** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:37 pm

Thats what I thought. Will my pride be compromised? You bet. So what !! Walk Away, Now. Think about it in your OWN SAFE PLACE !!

nuparadigm · Post by **nuparadigm** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:38 pm

Exiting the situation is the best call.

The issue of disparity of force could be a possible defense (in court) if the exit were totally impossible. But then, he would also have to be able to prove that his assailants had the intent and the opportunity to cause him death or bodily harm.

Post by **carlson1** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:05 pm

Welcome to the Forum spider. There will be a lot of good advice for your scenario.

Tote 9 · Post by **Tote 9** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:46 pm

I agree with whats already been said, swallow that pride and walk away.
Remember, you have a gun and he might not have. having a CHL and a
gun doesn't and shouldn't give us more courage than we would normaly
have. It's hard to tell what an individual would do if a incident turned
into a fight where there was bodily injury. Some might get mad and pull their gun too soon.

Black eyes and a broken broken nose does not constitute life threating.
Beyond that a person will have to make the decision himself when a cituation becomes life threating.

I am small, old, and have never been tough, but I am no coward. If I get into a confrontation
that goes bad and I can't walk away, and pepper spray doesn't work, then I will have to make
the disition when my life is threatened and pull my gun and hope I've made the right decision.

As much as we would like to say-- " Hey buddy you'd better leave me
alone I have a CHL and a gun",--- we can't do that. JMO.

Welcome to the Forum.

jimlongley · Post by **jimlongley** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:18 pm

You should make every effort to defuse the situation and retreat, that's the current law in TX anyway, and you will have the satisfaction of knowing that you were the better person, not drawing on an obvious weakling (mentally that is) and asking yourself, "Don't they realize that this is TX and I might be carrying a gun? Obviously mental defectives."

cyphur · Post by **cyphur** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:45 pm

If you can retreat, most definitely do so.

I will say, though, that when I am with my family I am more likely to escalate the situation quicker than when I am alone - I know that sounds backwards as all get out, but hear me out.

Here's a scenario....my family and I are at a store near dusk, walking out the car. My girls are buckled into the stroller( I have twins) and my wife and I are both carrying things in our arms. The car is ~20 yards away, locked. 4 people walk up to me and my family in a parking lot/garage, placing themselves between us and the car, making it obvious they are not upstanding citizens asking for directions. Their body language suggests they think they are predators, with the upper hand. They have baggy clothes, or jackets - making it difficult to tell if they are armed.

Now, being a soldier, I am rather attentive, so I am already in a defensive posture around my family before this happened. I take point, shielding my family. They continue to advance, I make verbal contact inquiring if I can help them. They laugh, banter a bit, and then someone advances towards me. I have about 10 feet to make a decision. I tell them to halt - they do not......what do I do?

I'm not going to pretend I can walk you through what I would do in a very fluid dynamic situation such as that - but rest assured, I will try to defuse the situation as much as possible but the second I feel that person is going to advance on me, I am going to put them down. Whether that is hand to hand, via a knife, an object around such as a 2x4 or a metal pole, or my firearm, they will not make it to my family - under any circumstance.

Another reason I usually carry more ammo when I am around my family, as my ability to flee is usually severely degraded and the possibility that I may need to shoot through the situation increases.

Sorry for the novel, but those are my thoughts....not everyone may agree with them, but I would rather stand before a Grand Jury justifying my actions than bury any member of my family. This is not to say I would use unjustified force, but I would not hesitate to use it when justified.

Liberty · Post by **Liberty** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:07 pm

cyphur wrote: I'm not going to pretend I can walk you through what I would do in a very fluid dynamic situation such as that - but rest assured, I will try to defuse the situation as much as possible but the second I feel that person is going to advance on me, I am going to put them down. Whether that is hand to hand, via a knife, an object around such as a 2x4 or a metal pole, or my firearm, they will not make it to my family - under any circumstance.

I believe legally there is no difference in the metal pole 2X4 or firearm. They are all an example of deadly force. You present a good case for pepper spray.

Confession time; I have what many refer to as sheepish qualities. Until it comes to the safety of my love ones.

Stupid · Post by **Stupid** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:37 pm

cyphur, you turn around and go back to the store/restrauant.

cyphur · Post by **cyphur** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:57 pm

Stupid, I would agree with you. Yet, this was not presented as a viable option. I was trying to present a worst case, no-egress-possible scenario to help someone think it through.

The flip side is, I've found criminals are a lot like dogs, when you turn to run, they "smell" fear, and become emboldened - at least in my experience. Every time I've stood my ground, things have immediately de-escalated, thankfully. I do not present an easy target.

Liberty - I believe you are correct, there is little difference. However, every situation warrants an individual response - I would very much like the diffuse a situation without drawing down.

Wildscar · Post by **Wildscar** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:51 am

spider373 wrote: So what are my options ?

Well I read this somewhere else and i think it would apply here. Would you rather face 12 strangers or be carried by 6 friends.

Tote 9 wrote:Black eyes and a broken broken nose does not constitute life threating.
Beyond that a person will have to make the decision himself when a cituation becomes life threating.

What happens when this leads to your weapon becoming dislodged from your holster and winding up in the BG hand.( I know a long shot but this is a big what if post.) I'll let the imagination go on this one.

Liberty wrote:
cyphur wrote: I'm not going to pretend I can walk you through what I would do in a very fluid dynamic situation such as that - but rest assured, I will try to defuse the situation as much as possible but the second I feel that person is going to advance on me, I am going to put them down. Whether that is hand to hand, via a knife, an object around such as a 2x4 or a metal pole, or my firearm, they will not make it to my family - under any circumstance.
I believe legally there is no difference in the metal pole 2X4 or firearm. They are all an example of deadly force. You present a good case for pepper spray.

Confession time; I have what many refer to as sheepish qualities. Until it comes to the safety of my love ones.

But what do you do if the BG is doped up and all pepper spray is going to do is make him angry? Don't say stun gun cause in the above scenario there are four guys. Stun guns only have 1 maybe 2 shots before it just becomes a paper weight. And doped up BG might just get more angry.

Stupid wrote:cyphur, you turn around and go back to the store/restaurant.

Change cyphurs scenario to 2 in front and 2 behind. Then what?

I'm all for the peaceful end to any situation but there are going to be times when that's not possible. And its those times where your only going to have a slit second to make that choice. We just have to hope that that slit second isn't our last.

spider373 · Post by **spider373** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:46 am

First, Thanks for all the inputs.

I kind of feel the same with Cyphur. A lot of times showing of sheepish only emboldens the BG. It is kind of like cat playing with its prey. He insults you, harasses you, provokes your anger for their fun. He is not going to stop to let you go until you are down and begging or out !

Yes ! AT this stage, when the BG is already close in and maybe already have bodily contact, any showing of rebellious or weapon is only to escalate the situation into worse. He is not going to allow his "mouse" becoming a Bull fighting dog.

Modern weaponry, such as guns, supposedly enables a more level playground with those bullying losers. Why don't we even allowed to at least to pre-warn them and prevent that from happening from the very beginning ?! Now I am serious leaning to support open carry.

The BG sees your weapon and he knows when push comes to shove, it will be messy. He may still kill you but I do not think BG in my scenerio would like to that kind of trouble.

This also reminds me of a story I read on this forum. This CHL was pumping gas in a station when three suspious guys close in and demand for money. The CHL pulled back his jacket to show them his weapon and said, "sorry, no money for you felas". And those guys backed down really quick. Here whethet the bad guys showed their knife was not important, because in the end the situation was defused successfully, at least for the time being. However, if they called the police first and claimed ... See where I am going ? We, the law-abiding citizen, now either surrender our wallet or facing possible prosecution !!

It seems that the more I know, the more I kind of feel like, ...(looking for words now...).

Thanks a lot, folks.

Greg