AK-47 Accuracy-Romanian WASR 10/63 VS Arsenal SGL21-61 or 66

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LSUTiger
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AK-47 Accuracy-Romanian WASR 10/63 VS Arsenal SGL21-61 or 66

Post by LSUTiger »

My question is do I gain anything accuracy wise to by getting and Arsenal SGL 21-61 AK-47 over a Romanian WASR 10/63 AK-47 and is it enough to warrant ditching the WASR and getting the Arsenal? Or am I just expecting too much from an AK (I'm an AR guy who really wants to be an AK guy but AK and accuracy doesn't belong in the same sentence).

I have the Romy WASR and its not very accurate, especially when the barrel heats up, minute of 2 men @ 100 yds at best. I've been shooting 7.62x39,TULA 124 gr HP, Monarch 123 gr FMJ, brown bear 123 gr FMJ and ULYANOVSK 122 gr FMJ.

The accuracy is the same with all of them. Shooting the green b-21 type target @ 100 yds, in 100 rounds, about 80 actually hit paper, and were distributed evenly over the target, I would estimate that of the 80, over 30 were on the white part of the target, only about 50 were hitting green, so in my rough estimate on 50% actually hit the target.

I shot a friends WASR and got roughly the same results.

Should I accept the AK for what it is and be happy or should I or can I expect more accuracy for a little more $.

Reliability means nothing if accuracy is non existent. Better fit and finish mean nothing is accuracy is not improved.

So should I stop trying to put lipstick on a pig or can I make an ugly girl look a little better? I want to drink the AK coolaid and buy into the AK myth but Im having a tough time. If I was shooting at a barn, Im sure I could hit the side of it with an AK, but a little guy with a gun shooting back at me I would have trouble with.

Spray and Pray my friends.
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74novaman
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Re: AK-47 Accuracy-Romanian WASR 10/63 VS Arsenal SGL21-61 o

Post by 74novaman »

A few questions. None of this is meant to insult you or your shooting ability, just trying to figure out where you're coming from and what your goals are. :tiphat:

1) Was your Wasr zeroed at 25 yards before you moved it out to 100?

2) Do you have the rear sight set for 100 meters?

3)How did you shoot at these 100 yard targets? From a bench, sandbagged or on a rest? Standing? Prone?

4) What sort of groups do you normally achieve with ARs? Are you comfortable with rifle shooting/more accurate with other platforms than you've been with your AK?


Now, outside of those questions a few other observations I have for you.....

1) Tula, Monarch and Brownbear are low end ammo. Even your ARs aren't going to group with Tula like they would with Hornady, for example. With good ammo, your rifle is capable of better accuracy. I know, they're cheap choices. Heck, I have a lot of Tula/Brownbear/Wolf ammo. It works, but if you're wanting to see what sort of accuracy your rifle is capable of, try some quality ammo.

2) What exactly are your accuracy expectations? I understand only 80% on paper is not acceptable to you. I agree wholeheartedly. But in general most AKs are going to be ~3-5 MOA. Some can do better, and really lousy examples of the gun can be worse. For me, 3 MOA is good enough that I can reliably hit a man sized target at 100 yards, and I'm satisfied with that. If you're looking for extreme, sub MOA type accuracy, AKs probably aren't your platform.

I have a Saiga and think the world of it. Great rifle. That being said, plenty of people have had great luck with their WASR 10/63s (even in the accuracy department), so I'm not sure that another rifle is the answer here.

Hopefully we can help you get this rifle ironed out. AKs are great guns and we can always use another Koolaid drinker around here. :mrgreen:
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LSUTiger
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Re: AK-47 Accuracy-Romanian WASR 10/63 VS Arsenal SGL21-61 o

Post by LSUTiger »

Thanks for the reply. I love the AK platform and one of the reasons for my post is because I was trying to justify getting another, although to get something "better". Also, I wanted to have realistic expectations out of the AK platform in terms of accuracy to help me decide if it's me or the gun or both.

I zeroed the gun if you want to call it that @ 100 yards. It took a few (5-10) shots to get on paper but the best I could get was about 6-8 moa shooting for a bench off sandbags with the rear sight set at 100m. The more I shot the worse the accuracy got.

With my AR with a non magnified Eotech and bore sight I was hitting 2-3 moa ( not great but great for me) the first time out not even trying using federal xm855 62gr fmj penetrators. I'm not a top shot by any means and was surprised at how well I could shoot the AR never having fired one before. The accuracy stayed consistent throught about the same round count as the AK.

I don't expect AR accuracy but I want to be able to consistently hit my target, anywhere, at least @ 100 yds. Enough to feel warm a fuzzy about my capability to use the gun to defend my self.

My WASR is in decent shape for a WASR. Only very minor blemishes and ever so slight cant in front sight/gas block. Furniture is rough but that's one of the reasons I like it. Goes bang every time I go click.
Any suggestions on accuracy improvement would be appreciated. I really like Koolaid. Just need to find a flavor that's right for me.
Chance favors the prepared. Making good people helpless doesn't make bad people harmless.
There is no safety in denial. When seconds count the Police are only minutes away.
Sometimes I really wish a lawyer would chime in and clear things up. Do we have any lawyers on this forum?
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74novaman
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Re: AK-47 Accuracy-Romanian WASR 10/63 VS Arsenal SGL21-61 o

Post by 74novaman »

Try zeroing the rifle at 25 yards, then stretching back out to 100.

2" low at 25 should be dead on at 100 yards.

You mentioned using an eotech on the AR. There are options for mounting an optic on an AK if you think that would be an easier sighting system for you.

AK irons do have a short sight radius compared to ARs so that could be a problem.

The Texas weapons system rail or a Midwest Industries handguard are both options you can explore if you're interested in that route.

Try rezeroing and see what that gets you. You certainly won't be in the wrong if you buy an Arsenal, but I don't think you should give up on your WASR just yet! :thumbs2:
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Weg
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Re: AK-47 Accuracy-Romanian WASR 10/63 VS Arsenal SGL21-61 o

Post by Weg »

I have owned several AK's in my lifetime, and always found those with 1.6 mm receivers to be much better shooters ( Chinese, and Yugo's I believe) . I know the WASR's are 1mm receivers, but I would think you should at least be able to get 12" groups at 100 yds. ( somewhere I have an old Soviet AK manual, and as I remember, their standard for acceptable accuracy was 12-14" groups at 100 yds. ) I have also heard and read, but have never shot one, that the AK74's are much more accurate in general than AKM/47's. I love AK's, but just have grown to accept the poor accuracy, especially after they heat up. Trying higher quality ammo than Tula ect. will prob. help though.
uthornsfan
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Re: AK-47 Accuracy-Romanian WASR 10/63 VS Arsenal SGL21-61 o

Post by uthornsfan »

Saiga???

My Saiga 308 shoots 1.5" MOA at 115yards with a rickety table and a bipod on 165 grain Hornady GMAX and a 4x Millett DMS
glbedd53
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Re: AK-47 Accuracy-Romanian WASR 10/63 VS Arsenal SGL21-61 o

Post by glbedd53 »

My Chinese will shoot 2 to 3 MOA with open sights all day long with good ammo.
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LSUTiger
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Re: AK-47 Accuracy-Romanian WASR 10/63 VS Arsenal SGL21-61 o

Post by LSUTiger »

What is " good " 7.62x 39 ammo?

$ must not exceed $10/box of 20, that's the most I paid for AR ammo.
Chance favors the prepared. Making good people helpless doesn't make bad people harmless.
There is no safety in denial. When seconds count the Police are only minutes away.
Sometimes I really wish a lawyer would chime in and clear things up. Do we have any lawyers on this forum?
OrangeAnimal
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Re: AK-47 Accuracy-Romanian WASR 10/63 VS Arsenal SGL21-61 o

Post by OrangeAnimal »

Have the front sight fixed. Also they heat and warp like crazy its kinda why they are so reliable. They are made loose from the start. Heat the gun up put a magazine worth thru it then sight it. You might be surprised. Its like a car engine. Back years ago the cars were just as reliable but they didn't always last long. They were built to less exacting tolerances due to equipment and materials available. So you were always told to let it warm up before you would start driving it. This gave time for everything to expand and fit tighter that process reduced wear and oil consumption. Also reduced emmisions from it. Now you have a rifle that has been around for decades and while many of them may be considered "new" they are more like a restored car. Same old technology and materials. So it is cold natured and picky sometimes but its a simple design and always works. Sure the steering isn't as precise as a new car but there is just something about it. The way it feels etc.

So that's my take on a old guns and cars. I love them both but I know sometimes not to expect the greatest from them but I know they will always get the job done.
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