51% Question

[RPBrown]

I have a freind that is about to get his CHL and has aske a question I don't know the answer too about 51%. I have done a search on here, DPS, and TABC sites and cannot find a difinitive answer.

The question is he is the owner of a bar. It is a 51% establishment. Can he, as the bar owner, carry concealed under CHL within the bar?

[RoyGBiv]

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/ope ... hours.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PC §46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits
an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries
on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the
person is not:
(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's
control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned
by the person or under the person's control.

The places prohibited under 46.035 are for CHL holders under the authority of Subchapter H chapter 411. If you are on your own property, you are not carrying under that authority. You can carry openly or concealed without any permit or whatever. The only exception is if you are a prohibited person.

I called TABC and spoke to an Agent who answered all my questions.

- The TABC Agent informed me that a Bar Owner can legally carry a firearm in his/her Bar during hours of operation.
- The Bar Owner Does Not have to be licensed by The State Of Texas [CHL] to carry a firearm on the premises.
- The firearm can be legally Open Carried or Concealed, but recommended Concealed.
- The Bar Owner cannot consume alcoholic beverages while he/she is carrying a firearm.

Summary: MY OPINION...!!
If you are inside a business that you own or control, PC46.02 says you are not prohibited from carrying. You may be prohibited under other PC, such a a felon in possession, etc. When you are carrying on your own premises, you are not carrying under CHL statutes, therefore, a CHL provision such as the 51% restriction would not apply. TABC, according to the referenced thread, seems to agree.

I am not a lawyer. This is my OPINION. Not legal advice.

[WildBill]

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/ope ... hours.html

PC §46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits
an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries
on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the
person is not:
(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's
control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned
by the person or under the person's control.

The places prohibited under 46.035 are for CHL holders under the authority of Subchapter H chapter 411. If you are on your own property, you are not carrying under that authority. You can carry openly or concealed without any permit or whatever. The only exception is if you are a prohibited person.

I called TABC and spoke to an Agent who answered all my questions.

- The TABC Agent informed me that a Bar Owner can legally carry a firearm in his/her Bar during hours of operation.
- The Bar Owner Does Not have to be licensed by The State Of Texas [CHL] to carry a firearm on the premises.
- The firearm can be legally Open Carried or Concealed, but recommended Concealed.
- The Bar Owner cannot consume alcoholic beverages while he/she is carrying a firearm.

Summary: MY OPINION...!!
If you are inside a business that you own or control, PC46.02 says you are not prohibited from carrying. You may be prohibited under other PC, such a a felon in possession, etc. When you are carrying on your own premises, you are not carrying under CHL statutes, therefore, a CHL provision such as the 51% restriction would not apply. TABC, according to the referenced thread, seems to agree.

I am not a lawyer. This is my OPINION. Not legal advice.

IANAL either, but

[tacticool]

As the owner, he does not need a CHL to carry on his premises. Penal Code 46.02

If that's not enough, he can check the section of the Alcoholic Beverage Code that applies to his business. I don't know if he has a permit or a license from TABC, but either way the code has an exception for weapons carried by the permittee/licensee or an employee who is "supervising the operation of the premises."

[WildBill]

As long as the bar owner buys a round for his patrons, rather than vice-versa.

[philip964]

Friday I went into a former BBQ restaurant that had reopened at Yale and Washington in Houston. J. Black's I think is the name. I was waiting for the other party inside when I noticed near the door on the same wall about 84 inches off the ground a 51% sign. It wasn't lit very well and if I hadn't been waiting in the reception area I wouldn't have noticed. It really surprised me when I saw it.

I figured it was still a restaurant as we came there to eat not drink. But maybe at night they sell so much alcohol they have passed the 51% limit or maybe since they have just reopened they may fancy themselves as a bar that serves food.

Any specifics on where the sign is suppose to be? I know concealed is concealed. But that felony thing is in big letters.

The pizza was pretty good.

[Teamless]

As found on TABC website
cense #: MB796169


Trade Name: J BLACK'S FEEL GOOD LOUNGE

Owner: J. BLACK'S HOUSTON - WASHINGTON AVENUE L
Location Address: 110 S HEIGHTS BOULEVARD


HOUSTON , TX 77007-5807
UNITED STATES
Mailing Address: 1601 E CESAR CHAVEZ #105


AUSTIN , TX 78702



County: Harris Orig. Issue Date: 1/27/2012
Status: Current Exp. Date: 1/26/2014
Wine Percent:
Location Phone No.: 512-531-9018

Subordinates: LB,PE
Related To: Gun Sign: RED

[recaffeination]

But the owner can carry. Right?

[JP171]

the owner can the employees can if the owner allows them to

[9mmfan]

The statute is 46.15 (b) (7). I may not be writing the code here correctly, I am not a legal type, but here is the text of the code.

Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY.

Insert a whole bunch of other stuff here.

(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(1) is in the actual discharge of official duties as a member of the armed forces or state military forces as defined by Section 431.001, Government Code, or as a guard employed by a penal institution;
(2) is traveling;
(3) is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor's residence, motor vehicle, or watercraft, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;
(4) holds a security officer commission issued by the Texas Private Security Board, if the person is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as an officer commissioned under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment and is wearing the officer's uniform and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view;
(5) acts as a personal protection officer and carries the person's security officer commission and personal protection officer authorization, if the person:
(A) is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as a personal protection officer under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, or is traveling to or from the person's place of assignment; and
(B) is either:
(i) wearing the uniform of a security officer, including any uniform or apparel described by Section 1702.323(d), Occupations Code, and carrying the officer's weapon in plain view; or
(ii) not wearing the uniform of a security officer and carrying the officer's weapon in a concealed manner;
(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person is carrying;
(7) holds an alcoholic beverage permit or license or is an employee of a holder of an alcoholic beverage permit or license if the person is supervising the operation of the permitted or licensed premises...

Insert more stuff here.

This is handy for me to know, as I manage a bar, and do in fact carry at work.

Insofar as the question 'bout the owner carrying, a resounding YES is the answer, open or concealed. Doesn't even need the CHL to do so. For the public interest, I personally conceal. For many reasons, he best stay sober though. It is a specific crime for the license/permit holder to be intoxicated on the premises, as well as servers. Above, and separate from, the law that simply prohibits anyone from being intoxicated in public in this particular state.

[C-dub]

Friday I went into a former BBQ restaurant that had reopened at Yale and Washington in Houston. J. Black's I think is the name. I was waiting for the other party inside when I noticed near the door on the same wall about 84 inches off the ground a 51% sign. It wasn't lit very well and if I hadn't been waiting in the reception area I wouldn't have noticed. It really surprised me when I saw it.

I figured it was still a restaurant as we came there to eat not drink. But maybe at night they sell so much alcohol they have passed the 51% limit or maybe since they have just reopened they may fancy themselves as a bar that serves food.

Any specifics on where the sign is suppose to be? I know concealed is concealed. But that felony thing is in big letters.

The pizza was pretty good.

Are you asking where the sign is supposed to be posted? If so, at the entrance. I'm not sure if that means just inside the entrance or at the door so it may be seen from the outside prior to entering.

However, I don't think it makes a difference what time of day it is or whether you're going there to drink or not. I think it is off limits all the time.

[9mmfan]

However, I don't think it makes a difference what time of day it is or whether you're going there to drink or not. I think it is off limits all the time.

You best believe it.

Ain't no thinking, pondering, wondering, or conjecture. Simply possessing a weapon (handgun, club, or illegal knife) in a 51% location is a FELONY! 10 years/10,000 dollar fine. No more guns, voting, etc. Societal pariah. All the baggage contained. Of course there is a defense to PROSECUTION clause, assuming the premises lacked proper notification by means of posting.

There is a general understanding that long guns are included in this prohibition, though I don't know of any particular statute off the top of my head. Anyone walks into my joint with a rifle or shotgun best get the drop on me, or I'm HIGHLY likely to light 'em up if'n I have the opportunity. Not because of machismo, but because I assume they are there to rob the joint or kill one or all of us. (I am uncannily tuned to the sound of any of our doors opening.)

The classification is determined by the sales reported to the state. These are broken down by liquor, beer, wine (14% tax) and food/merchandise (standard 8.25% sales tax.) This is reported, and all relevant taxes to be payed by the 20th of every month. The classification might be determined quarterly, though I don't know. Every place I have worked in the last 18 years has been firmly in one camp or the other. If you are in a grey area, I would assume you either are a new business entity, or are unsure of your business model. Could happen, but seems unlikely.

I have been surprised by exactly two locations that the TABC website doesn't consider a bar, one here in Dallas the other in Mineral Wells. Casual observation gave both the stank of a bar, but sales reported to the state said otherwise. Unless you are sure, DO NOT RISK IT!

On this similar frequent point of questioning, I often see asked on this site if the "bar area" of a restaurant is different than the dining area. While this is the case in other states (Oklahoma comes to mind), odds are good that this is prolly not the case in Texas. If it were, drinks from the permitted/licensed portion of the business would not be allowed in the other areas of said business. Getting a liquor license/permit is a fairly specific and expensive affair, and square footage/included premises are submitted with the application. Heck, my boss was looking to open another joint, and was two parking spaces shy to obtain a Certificate of Occupancy ('cause you want enough spaces for folks who have been drinking to have a car handy), so he couldn't open the place.

The only instance that would stand out is in the case of a mall/strip mall that had a bar as one of the included businesses. But, in keeping with the Alcoholic Beverage Code, drinks would not be allowed outside of the premises (building or PORTION of a building, in this case.) I.E. one is not allowed to take their drink to from the licensed/permitted tenancy into either the office next door, or into the public area of an enclosed mall.

I will, as custom dictates, state the following: Though I frequently camp, shoot, and occasionally have a drink or two with a lawyer (while concurrent, the drinking happens after the shooting and the packing up of whatever guns are not stashed in our respective tents), I myself am not a lawyer, barrister, magistrate et. al. and am simply stating my understanding of the law as I have read and interpreted it as an armed citizen, gun owner and bar manager.

[E.Marquez]

However, I don't think it makes a difference what time of day it is or whether you're going there to drink or not. I think it is off limits all the time.

You best believe it.

Yes, agree, a Red sign is red 24 hours a day...

However..

There is a general understanding that long guns are included in this prohibition, though I don't know of any particular statute off the top of my head. Anyone walks into my joint with a rifle or shotgun best get the drop on me, or I'm HIGHLY likely to light 'em up if'n I have the opportunity. Not because of machismo, but because I assume they are there to rob the joint or kill one or all of us. (I am uncannily tuned to the sound of any of our doors opening.)

Interesting...
May I ask.., general understanding by who? and if it is not a court, judge, DA, State AG.. it really is no more valid then what my plumber has to say about ROE for a hellfire strike in Regional Command East, Afghanistan...

So, if you know of some case law, or TPC that supports your "general understanding" please share.

My General Understanding is..
Sec. 46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED.
Does not support your statement.

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS
Does not support your statement.

and
Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.
Which is the only TPC I see that speaks to "51%" stuff only covers concealed hand guns .

So Sec. 46.035 Does not support your statement.

That said, IANAL... so if 9mmfan or another knows where this is covered.. post up please.

Lastly

Anyone walks into my joint with a rifle or shotgun best get the drop on me, or I'm HIGHLY likely to light 'em up if'n I have the opportunity

I can only assume, your internet anonymity and bravado is getting the best of you here. I do hope it's just the way the statement is coming across, and not an actual intent and meaning.

I wish you the best of luck in A: never getting into a gun fight at your place of employment and B: Best hope the lawyer for the dead guys family never finds this thread. Because as a potential juror, were I to be shown your statements made above before the shooting that you intended to shoot anyone who walks in the door with a rifle of shotgun.. well, I think you make the job of your defense team very difficult.

[blackdog8200]

Friday I went into a former BBQ restaurant that had reopened at Yale and Washington in Houston. J. Black's I think is the name. I was waiting for the other party inside when I noticed near the door on the same wall about 84 inches off the ground a 51% sign. It wasn't lit very well and if I hadn't been waiting in the reception area I wouldn't have noticed. It really surprised me when I saw it.

I figured it was still a restaurant as we came there to eat not drink. But maybe at night they sell so much alcohol they have passed the 51% limit or maybe since they have just reopened they may fancy themselves as a bar that serves food.

Any specifics on where the sign is suppose to be? I know concealed is concealed. But that felony thing is in big letters.

The pizza was pretty good.

My Son took a girl here on a 1st date....he had to make up some excuse to head back out to the car as he was carrying at the time. It must have worked out because they have a second date

I agree the food here is pretty (the nachos are very good) good but since I live in the area and KNOW who some of my neighbors are, the option of disarming is too alarming to me. There are several other wine bars in the area my wife wants to go and I always balk due the the 51% possiblities. Way easier to find a place that serves liquor but is not 51% were I can keep a "dry" eye on things while the wife has a few.

[9mmfan]

Bronco78, please allow me to begin by saying a hearty thank you for your service.

You raise some valid points. I should have said "my" general understanding regarding long guns in bars. I will admit to no direct knowledge of a statute regarding this, though I will search. If only for my own edification. If I find this, I will gladly share, so that we may all be informed. I did see some kind of chart regarding this on the internets once, so it's gotta be true.

I can only assume, your internet anonymity and bravado is getting the best of you here. I do hope it's just the way the statement is coming across, and not an actual intent and meaning.

Ouch. Also, sadly, quite true, as I believe my rant got the better of me in this case.

I wish you the best of luck in A: never getting into a gun fight at your place of employment...

Amen to that, brother. Or anywhere else for that matter. As a kinda fat guy on the front porch of middle age, I really enjoy me some peace and quiet.

Turns out I was also mistaken about the place in Mineral Wells. Got a PM from a member lives out that way wondering to which place I was referring. Before responding, I double checked, and lo and behold, sign=red. It was Woody's on 180. We drive by it when we're out that way, and my wife has said she heard the burgers were good and that she would like to stop in some time. I swear I looked it up before and it said blue. So either something changed, or I just misremembered.

Man you guys keep a fella honest!

In the future, I will remember the order is get off work, go to sleep, THEN get up and make statements on a public forum after some rest has cleared my mind of the fog of fatigue and the somewhat sour note dealing with folks in various levels of intoxication and/or sanity for 13 hours a day leaves on my usually good-natured, if a bit cranky, disposition.

Thank you gentlemen, and you ladies too. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to think about what I've done...