First Experience with Firearm Training Simulator

[MoJo]

Our Citizens Police Academy Alumni Association bought some new software for the FATS that Jefferson County/Beaumont/Port Arthur/Lamar Institute of Technology shares. The discs were $2500 - - - the complete system is somewhere in the 50 grand range.

[KD5NRH]

Think rolls of plotter paper, digital projector, and some pre-recorded scenarios. With a little digital editing, you could even have the same scenarios with different outcomes so no user knows until it happens whether a BG will surrender when challenged.

Bonus is that you get to use your own gun, with full recoil.

A tie-in to the soundcard could even have the computer act as a shot timer, allowing you to back up to the exact instant you fired each shot and see exactly what the hole is in.

Somebody who already has the video editing software and skills should be able to assemble the rest of it and host a range day for under $2k...under $1k if a good surplus projector and a cheap source for the paper can be found. If anybody knows of a range that would allow it, it could be turning a profit quickly.

[srothstein]

I don't remember this one recoiling. I do remember the long double action trigger of the Sig which was the same every time. When I was handed the gun, I was told it was a real gun, don't wave it around, etc. I checked the mag (empty) and he told me to not rack the slide before I did so (obviously noting I was checking it for clear).

Perhaps there are higher quality versions which do have some sort of blowback or recoil incorporated.

The best of the simulators I am aware of has six screens so you get a 360 degree simulation and the firearms are charged by CO2 to recoil and work the slides.

On several others, there is now a way to rig a small remote control paintball gun in the ceiling to actually shoot at the trainee to.

I've never priced this sort of item (I expect it would be a stretch for a group buy), but perhaps we could find an organization that has one that might be willing to bring it to our Forum day in September.... I'll see what I can do.

I would recommend that you call the companies. I know that FATS does have a portable one their salesmen use at police conventions. If you have to, mention that we have several officers that also show up, and they might be willing to bring it. I don't know if they will require officers or not, but it might help. Military personnel would also help their interest if we have any in the group.

[KBCraig]

My only simulator experience was with the Army's TSFO -- Theater Set, Fire Observation. We used it to train calling for fire on advancing enemy forces under many different lighting and weather conditions. For the mid-80s (meaning early '70s technology), it was impressive.

The cool thing was, when I arrived at my first duty station in Germany, the map of my GDP looked very familiar: it was the Rasdorf Bowl, directly adjacent to the Grusselbach Corridor, which was what was featured in the TSFO.

Kevin

[Stupid]

What is the law regarding offering FATS to civilian?

[Skiprr]

This is a great discussion, not just for GlockenHammer's nifty review of the simulator, but for the other options and ideas, as well.

I know that FATS does have a portable one their salesmen use at police conventions. If you have to, mention that we have several officers that also show up, and they might be willing to bring it.

For TXCHL Day at PSC--which I think has the potential to be a big event this year based on nothing but the growing Forum numbers, and growing Forum member participation at PSC on its fourth-Saturday IDPA matches--I think this might be the most doable solution. The planners are planning, but it might be a good thing to specifically invite some police or sheriff representation to present on a topic like "How CHLs Should Interact with Law Enforcement," to aid community communication among LEOs and CHLs, and as a reason to have a portable FATS there.

Think rolls of plotter paper, digital projector, and some pre-recorded scenarios...

This gets the Most Creative Idea of the Day award. The only trick I can see is that most DLP/LCD projectors would have a tough time displaying well enough in bright, daylight conditions at a distance that would be suitable for self-defense scenarios. And you'd need to physically arrange the set-up so that the shooter wouldn't move between the projector and the paper screen(s). And you'd want to make sure the paper rolls weren't susceptable to heavy wind gusts. But this would be workable, nonetheless, even outdors and without a lot of cash outlay...and you can always tape and reuse the paper a few times.

I'd think a nice addition would be to have a camera that would video the action. If there was no easy way to tie the PC-driven scenario with a shot timer, a review of this video would probably be a good evaluation of a shooter's performance. You may not be able to tell exactly where each hole appeared, but you should be able to see misses (on the white paper), and could certainly evaluate type and timing of response within the scenario. Plus you have added advantage that a shooter could have a video he or she could walk away with for individual review of what was and wasn't done well. Just like take-home videos of golf lessons, sometimes we do stuff we don't realize we do, and going away (or downloading later) videos like this could be an invaluable training aid for both tactical decision making and practical technique.

Charles had brought up the idea once before of custom-built shoot/don't shoot scenarios that could be committed to video for standalone use in a classroom, with maybe a panel of three experts adding commentary about the correct way to have handled the situation included at the end of the scenarios, after the class had time to discuss their own responses.

This TacSim (trademark pending, KD5NRH ) video projection alternative would be a natural extension of the classroom shoot/don't shoot scenarios. They could be run in-classroom only, or students could run them "for real" on the range, and have the class/expert discussion afterward.

Using airsoft pistols in force-on-force training is pretty telling too....

And then there's this probably most practical option. There's been talk on the board about Airsoft training before, but I don't anything really ever came of it...at least not as a group or regular activity.

One kicker is that you'd need to have a location or property to conduct it where ordinary folks wouldn't be alarmed. Try it in my suburban backyard, and I can only imagine that Harris County Sheriff's Deputies would be there in short order. And since you are firing little plastic pellets at one another, there is some liability consideration.

But any type of FoF practice is something completely missing from my own training, and I suspect from most others, as well. I took a tactical pistol class last Sunday, and one of the guys in it shot very well in the warm-up: some static, on-command drills. When we started multiple targets on the move, he became visibly more stressed, gettin' some yips. And we all knew not one of the targets was going to move or shoot back...

[Venus Pax]

This sounds like a lot of fun, and eye-opening as well.

[Operators Edge]

I have done alot of work for the leading company in the firearms sim market, not F.A.T.S., and if you really want to own one you can. An entry level system starts at about 5000 USD. A full blown LE system WITH recoil runs about 27000 USD. I have a couple demos I think we can deal on too. PM me if interested and as alawys you can try before you buy in our shop. And yes, there are many many many senarios that a CHL can use.

[srothstein]

For TXCHL Day at PSC--which I think has the potential to be a big event this year based on nothing but the growing Forum numbers, and growing Forum member participation at PSC on its fourth-Saturday IDPA matches--I think this might be the most doable solution. The planners are planning, but it might be a good thing to specifically invite some police or sheriff representation to present on a topic like "How CHLs Should Interact with Law Enforcement," to aid community communication among LEOs and CHLs, and as a reason to have a portable FATS there.

We have several people on the forum that are active LEO's who could probably be convinced to talk. I would be happy to if you so desire> I was thinking that maybe a round table discussion where you have about half a dozen LEO's from different agencies and each gives a brief on how they prefer it, then we can all answer questions from the audience on it. I know some people in the Game Warden and DPS academies that I think I can convince to attend, if we give them enough notice. I can also contact a few other academies and see if we can get any volunteers on it.

I would need an exact date and location also.

[GlockenHammer]

For TXCHL Day at PSC--which I think has the potential to be a big event this year based on nothing but the growing Forum numbers, and growing Forum member participation at PSC on its fourth-Saturday IDPA matches--I think this might be the most doable solution. The planners are planning, but it might be a good thing to specifically invite some police or sheriff representation to present on a topic like "How CHLs Should Interact with Law Enforcement," to aid community communication among LEOs and CHLs, and as a reason to have a portable FATS there.

We have several people on the forum that are active LEO's who could probably be convinced to talk. I would be happy to if you so desire> I was thinking that maybe a round table discussion where you have about half a dozen LEO's from different agencies and each gives a brief on how they prefer it, then we can all answer questions from the audience on it. I know some people in the Game Warden and DPS academies that I think I can convince to attend, if we give them enough notice. I can also contact a few other academies and see if we can get any volunteers on it.

I would need an exact date and location also.

I'll bring this up with the rest of the planning team. The date is September 29th and the location is PSC Range in Friendswood.