Interesting "would you carry" scenario

[jsenner]

Background: my neighbor has a rental property that's been occupied for a while by someone who's simply not stable. he's had the cops called on him multiple times for threatening neighbors, etc. She's had major issues with them and the house and has finally had to start eviction proceedings. The court date is tomorrow and already he has been vocal about threatening her with physical violence. naturally this will not play in his favor in court but we all know how well restraining orders work in reality.

The Situation: this neighbor is having an event at her house on saturday, the day after the court hearing that's likely to go very badly for the tenant. she's planned this for a while so timing was not her choice. the police have already suggested that she hire off duty officers for security but she simply cannot afford it.

The Question: she has asked me if I would carry to the event "just in case" he snaps and shows up and starts trying to stab people. would you carry to the event?

she's ok with people carrying open or concealed on her property and is very pro-gun. she has a gun at the house but is worried and wants "more eyes on the situation".

the problem is, it's well established that this guy is a problem, the police are well aware of him. If I carry to the event and something does happen, given that she asked me to carry and I know a troublemaker may show up - the situation has me nervous about how a lawyer could twist this around into pre-meditation on my/our part.

Thoughts?

I've come to a conclusion that I'll share - stop reading now if you want to comment before seeing what my plan is :)


I'm going to help her pay for the off duty officers to be present and provide security. I will also carry and make sure all the key players are aware, but I plan to let the officers deal with it and stay well away if at all possible. my carry would only be a last resort should things get way out of hand. it just seems too damn risky to do otherwise. there will be drinking and the whole situation is just too potentially volatile to take chances. I'd rather the officers put a stop to it at the driveway and the rest of us never know it happened.

[Ameer]

I always carry except for voting, jury duty and intercontinental flights.

[flechero]

I'd offer to help pay for security, and also carry as usual. (only I would NOT be telling people that I was carrying, as usual.)

[RottenApple]

"I'm sorry, but I'm not a licensed security officer and can't legally act as such. You might want to look into hiring security." Then carry normally.

[The Annoyed Man]

I think your planned response is just fine. One suggestion.......and this is entirely up to you as I don't know if it is a good idea or bad....but since you're the one hiring the officer and you're going to be carrying, I'd suggest introducing yourself to the officer as the person who hired him, and show your IDs.....both of them.....to him to confirm your identity. If he asks if you're carrying, you can say yes if you want, but you can also say that you hired him so you wouldn't have to worry about anything, and that you're just carrying because you always carry. He might even like the idea.

But if you do that, you better not consume any alcohol.

[jsenner]

But if you do that, you better not consume any alcohol.

for obvious and sensible reasons - to be sure.

it would be in private property though :-)

[TexasCajun]

But if you do that, you better not consume any alcohol.

for obvious and sensible reasons - to be sure.

it would be in private property though :-)

Private property is irrelevant where alcohol is concerned. If you are carrying, you cannot be intoxicated. And since the state/dps hasn't really offered a clear definition of the term, you put yourself at substantial risk if you consume while carrying. Your plan is pretty sound. TAM's add-on also makes a lot of sense. Good luck with the event & I hope that it turns out well & without incident.

[cb1000rider]

I'm pretty good at steering clear of trouble, but when I'm carrying, I'm *really* good at steering clear of trouble. If you're expecting it, the tool that I'd be concerned with having is a good camera phone.

I regard to alcohol and firearms, clearly a no-no. As I read it, there is no obligation for the police to prove intoxication using evidence like there is with a drunken driving offense. That is, and this is my theory, that they're going to treat the event like "public intoxication". The burden of proof on intoxication is entirely up to the officer. That is, if he says that you're drunk, you are... And you're not getting a breathalyzer or blood test to prove otherwise. Public Intoxication is a commonly used means for arrest as it's very low bar, has no reasonable standard, and the officer (trained in detecting alcohol impairment) is an expert witness with no reason to lie. Watch yourself. I've seen PI arrests on people that were sober... More than once.

[Pacifist]

Prior advice notwithstanding, you're talking about mixing alcohol, firearms, previous and admitted hard feelings, and probable mental illness and then you're going to willingly and voluntarily put yourself in the middle of that situation? I think not.

One absolutely certain way to avoid a firefight (or any other undesired confrontation) is to not be there when it occurs. Advise your neighbor as best you can (personally, my advice would be to cancel or postpone the party) and then politely decline the party invitation. I've simply never been to a party that was worth risking my life over---ever, and I've been to a bunch.

[bdickens]

I carry at all times when it is legal for me to do so except when I am working. The only reason I don't carry when I am working is because the physical realities of my job make it painful and there is an extremely high likelihood of my sidearm becoming exposed. But even then, it is nearby.

[CoffeeNut]

I would certainly carry to the event. It doesn't seem sensible not to however I wouldn't advertise or confirm that I was carrying to the homeowner so that if push came to shove I was just an invited guest at the end of the day and she can answer honestly that she wasn't aware.

Since off duty LE will be there I would still carry but I'd make myself known to them but if things did sour I would do everything in my power to let the LEOs handle it for fear of being accidentally shot by one of them when they see my gun coming out of the holster pronto.

[Abraham]

If anyone requested I be at a location for them because I have a CHL and a pistol, which apparently they think allows me to act as a security officer,... I would decline - especially when it's known they're expecting trouble.

I can see a lawsuit in the making.

Lawyer: You Mr. CHLer, your presence was requested because you and the requester knew in advance there was a high probability of trouble requiring your use of a gun?

Oh yeah, that'd go down well...

[texanjoker]

he Question: she has asked me if I would carry to the event "just in case" he snaps and shows up and starts trying to stab people. would you carry to the event?

That is concerning. I like the idea of helping her pay for the ODO's . They are trained, have legal authority and assume the liability. Now that it is Sat AM your neighbor should have an indication how this person reacted at court? Any updates? If there were additional threats, prior to the event I would call the locals and just give them a heads up that the event is taking place, there are ODO's on scene (don't know if they are from the same dept) and provide whatever pertinent info they ask for. A smaller dept will be more likely to take the info then a larger agency.

I can say that if I knew a place had the real potential of this sort of behavior I wouldn't go to the event. That would be like being at work and not my idea of a day off. You are in a catch 22. If you do go, have a plan how to get out of there if something happens.

[jimtexas68]

How could a prosecutor prove some sort of premeditation if something were to happen and you had to stop this guy yourself? Your weapon is legally being carried, you're not drinking, you're not acting as some sort of security force. You are a neighbor that is at a party. Just because she told you that she fears an altercation with this person doesn't mean that it WILL happen. The guys actions are totally the key in this scenario. If he comes to the party and screams obscenities or even threatens her verbally, you know the proper thing to do is notify the cops and ask him to leave. If the guy brandishes a knife as you stated in your OP then all bets are off and you would be within the law. I guess I don't understand the premeditation conscerns. The only way I see any possibilty of premeditation is if you gave him the knife and told him "Hey...let's play a little joke on these people" and as soon as he pulled the knive you shot him.