CHL on VA (Veteran's Affairs) Property

[LAYGO]

Is the VA considered Federal or something restricting carrying even in the vehicle? I'm asking on behalf of my SO (with her CHL) who started a new job today at a VA Clinic. Is it going to be illegal to keep pistol in the vehicle? She said she asked & got a response of "no go, even in the vehicle".

I'm looking for a definitive answer still, but thought I'd see if anyone had any other ideas.

Thanks!

[TxRVer]

My wife is a nurse at the Dallas VA hospital. It's federal property and illegal to carry or even have it in the car. I don't know anything about the clinic you speak of. Is the parking lot on federal property?

[LAYGO]

Found this, basically saying "if it's illegal on fed, this doesn't grant you access":

LC §52.061. RESTRICTION ON PROHIBITING EMPLOYEE ACCESS
TO OR STORAGE OF FIREARM OR AMMUNITION. A public or private
employer may not prohibit an employee who holds a l icense to carry a
concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government
Code, who otherwise lawfully possesses a firearm, or who lawfully
possesses ammunition from transporting or storing a firearm or
ammunition the employee is authorized by law to possess in a locked,
privately owned motor vehicle in a parking lot, parking garage, or other
parking area the employer provides for employees.
Sec. 52.062. EXCEPTIONS. (a) Section 52.061 does not:
(1) authorize a person who holds a license to carry a concealed
handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, who
otherwise lawfully possesses a firearm, or who lawfully possesses
ammunition to possess a firearm or ammunition on any property where
the possession of a firearm or ammunition is prohibited by state or federal
law; or

But I couldn't find anything searching for the Federal regulation prohibiting it on the VA (or any) site. I searched & got a bunch of gobbly goop PDFs with nothing useful.

My wife is a nurse at the Dallas VA hospital. It's federal property and illegal to carry.

Thanks. Illegal to carry, I don't doubt, but even in the vehicle? Did I miss something in class saying ALL FEDERAL property is off limits?

[Keith B]

Found this, basically saying "if it's illegal on fed, this doesn't grant you access":

LC §52.061. RESTRICTION ON PROHIBITING EMPLOYEE ACCESS
TO OR STORAGE OF FIREARM OR AMMUNITION. A public or private
employer may not prohibit an employee who holds a license to carry a
concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government
Code, who otherwise lawfully possesses a firearm, or who lawfully
possesses ammunition from transporting or storing a firearm or
ammunition the employee is authorized by law to possess in a locked,
privately owned motor vehicle in a parking lot, parking garage, or other
parking area the employer provides for employees.
Sec. 52.062. EXCEPTIONS. (a) Section 52.061 does not:
(1) authorize a person who holds a license to carry a concealed
handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, who
otherwise lawfully possesses a firearm, or who lawfully possesses
ammunition to possess a firearm or ammunition on any property where
the possession of a firearm or ammunition is prohibited by state or federal
law; or

But I couldn't find anything searching for the Federal regulation prohibiting it on the VA (or any) site. I searched & got a bunch of gobbly goop PDFs with nothing useful.

My wife is a nurse at the Dallas VA hospital. It's federal property and illegal to carry.

Thanks. Illegal to carry, I don't doubt, but even in the vehicle? Did I miss something in class saying ALL FEDERAL property is off limits?

That is state law and federeal laws/rules trump it on their property. The federal law is here

18 USC § 930 - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities
.US Code
(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
(b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.
(e)
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).
(f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.
(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
(2) The term “dangerous weapon” means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 21/2 inches in length.
(3) The term “Federal court facility” means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.

It specifically states 'facility' which is defined as building. However, the state parking lot law does not override federal rules and if they say not on their property, then they can prohibit possesion even in your car.

[LAYGO]

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/usa.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

§ 102-74.440 What is the Policy Concerning Weapons on Federal Property?
Federal law prohibits the possession of firearms or other dangerous weapons in Federal facilities and Federal
court facilities by all persons not specifically authorized by 18 U.S.C. 930. Violators will be subject to fine
and/or imprisonment for periods up to five (5) years.

In Federal facilities, is the definition of "facilities" the same as Texas "physical premises"?

18 USC Sec. 930 01/03/2007
Title 18 - Crimes and Criminal Procedure
Part I - Crimes
Chapter 44 – Firearms
Sec. 930. Possession of Firearms and Dangerous Weapons in Federal Facilities
(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or
other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall
be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
(b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime,
knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or
attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(c) Omitted for space considerations here
(d) Omitted for space considerations here
(e) Omitted for space considerations here
(f) Omitted for space considerations here
(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term "Federal facility" means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the
Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of
performing their official duties.
(2) The term "dangerous weapon" means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance,
animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury,
except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 2 1/2 inches in length.
(3) Omitted for space considerations here
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public
entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each
public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under
subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility,
unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.

[LAYGO]

It specifically states 'facility' which is defined as building. However, the state parking lot law does not override federal rules and if they say not on their property, then they can prohibit possesion even in your car.

Looks like I found the same thing you did, but I don't read "facility" like parking lot. I get that is how state law reads, but it does not specifically state in that regulation "parking lot/premises/etc". I am not aware of a different policy they might have governing employees (ie, "can be fired, but not prosecuted"), yet. Maybe I can get ahold of the policies?

[LAYGO]

This also seems to support that Federal Property doesn't include parking lots, as far as the Post Office is concerned (as of 07/09/13):
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/FedC ... Ruling.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thus, the Avon Post Office parking lot is not a sensitive place, and there is
accordingly no presumption that the USPS Regulation is a valid restriction on Mr. Bonidy’s
right to carry a firearm onto it.

[Keith B]

This also seems to support that Federal Property doesn't include parking lots, as far as the Post Office is concerned (as of 07/09/13):
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/FedC ... Ruling.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thus, the Avon Post Office parking lot is not a sensitive place, and there is
accordingly no presumption that the USPS Regulation is a valid restriction on Mr. Bonidy’s
right to carry a firearm onto it.

Her employee manual should tell her what the rules on weapons are. It falls back to the fact that the state law would not protect her from being fired for having it in her vehicle, even if not illegal by federal law.

[LAYGO]

This also seems to support that Federal Property doesn't include parking lots, as far as the Post Office is concerned (as of 07/09/13):
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/FedC ... Ruling.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thus, the Avon Post Office parking lot is not a sensitive place, and there is
accordingly no presumption that the USPS Regulation is a valid restriction on Mr. Bonidy’s
right to carry a firearm onto it.

Her employee manual should tell her what the rules on weapons are. It falls back to the fact that the state law would not protect her from being fired for having it in her vehicle, even if not illegal by federal law.

Right "fireable, but not prosecutable". Hmm. I wonder if there is case law on that. It seems like if parking lots are not prohibited, then wouldn't Texas LC §52.061 be applicable?

[Keith B]

I wonder if there is case law on that. It seems like if parking lots are not prohibited, then wouldn't Texas LC §52.061 be applicable?

No. Still on Federal property and state law has no rule over that.

[LAYGO]

I wonder if there is case law on that. It seems like if parking lots are not prohibited, then wouldn't Texas LC §52.061 be applicable?

No. Still on Federal property and state law has no rule over that.

But where does Federal property prohibit parking lots ("facilities", not mentioning parking lots)? If it doesn't prohibit, then Texas LC §52.061 seems applicable. I'd be interested in some actual lawyer review.

[Keith B]

I wonder if there is case law on that. It seems like if parking lots are not prohibited, then wouldn't Texas LC §52.061 be applicable?

No. Still on Federal property and state law has no rule over that.

But where does Federal property prohibit parking lots ("facilities", not mentioning parking lots)? If it doesn't prohibit, then Texas LC §52.061 seems applicable. I'd be interested in some actual lawyer review.

That state law has no impact at all on Federal property. So, while it may not be illegal to have a firearm in the parking lot the state law does not then come into play to say they have to allow carry on their parking lot by an employee. They can prohibit it just by their own rules stating no employee may have a firearm in their vehicle.

[suthdj]

When they had the facility in Ft Worth down from JPS I would park on the street and walk in.

[MeMelYup]

The part quoted states that facility is the building or part of. The parking area is not a building.

[jimlongley]

I don't think the employee manual is any more likely to be trustworthy than anything else written by someone with their own agenda. I have never seen anything that said parking lot carry was illegal, except for the post office.

18 USC 930 specifically defines "facility" and that definition does not include anything outside the buildings.

When I worked for TSA we were told, as part of our "employee manual" that firearms were banned in the parking lot due to federal law. When we questioned which law, they at first could not find one, and then they fell back on 18/930. Then it was pointed out that the cited code defined "facility" and that did not include the parking lot, and besides, the airport was city property, not federal, and therefore not subject to 18/930.

Eventually they posted the break room with 18/930.

They never really acknowledged it, but our feeling was that they lost the argument.

And then someone pointed out: "(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;"

Which would have included all of us.

Another conundrum unresolved, but we were told that "they" (in Washington) said that the exception did not apply to us, because we were federal employees and therefore subject to the rules they made, not the actual law (I think) and that we were not actually engaged in the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any law, we were just inspecting baggage and passengers for contraband, and so on in a vast circular cesspool.

I carried in the parking lot from the day I started until the day I left, and even carried during training. Training was conducted at a hotel off site and it was not posted in any way, shape, or form. One of my fellow trainees turned me in and I got a stern lecture and they threatened me with termination, but I maintained that they had not complied with state or federal law and they conceded that, and I kept my job. The fellow trainee had never seen my gun, just had a suspicion, so I went on wearing my holster and/or fanny pack, and just filled it with a ham radio, or any number of other bulky and blocky things.