Class 3 weapon license

[govnor]

Has anyone considered getting a class 3 license? Or do you have one already? I would appreciate thoughts on this since I'm thinking about getting one.

I know it's a pain and I also know that class 3 stuff costs a lot of money. I'm not worried about that. I was talking to a class 3 dealer at the gun show this weekend and he told me to put together a "living trust" and put the class 3 under that. It's pretty much like a corporation, but isn't dissolved when the company goes away. I'm not sure exactly how this works legally, but I'm going to find out. I talked to another class 3 dealer and he didn't even know about the living trust thing.

It's completely legal of course. I was just wondering if anyone has gone this route or other ways of doing it. I'm also planning to get a FFl. From my research it almost looks like the class 3 is easier...

[NcongruNt]

Has anyone considered getting a class 3 license? Or do you have one already? I would appreciate thoughts on this since I'm thinking about getting one.

I know it's a pain and I also know that class 3 stuff costs a lot of money. I'm not worried about that. I was talking to a class 3 dealer at the gun show this weekend and he told me to put together a "living trust" and put the class 3 under that. It's pretty much like a corporation, but isn't dissolved when the company goes away. I'm not sure exactly how this works legally, but I'm going to find out. I talked to another class 3 dealer and he didn't even know about the living trust thing.

It's completely legal of course. I was just wondering if anyone has gone this route or other ways of doing it. I'm also planning to get a FFl. From my research it almost looks like the class 3 is easier...

It's not a license. It's a tax. With a background check.

In order to buy a Class III weapon, you must first pay the $200 tax and wait around 3 months for the paperwork to go through. If you pass the background checks, they send you the paperwork and tax stamp and you're ready to go. You must have the original paperwork or a copy of it with the weapon at all times. You also have to get special authorization to transport the weapon across state lines.

That's my understanding, anyway.

[Mike1951]

You're really not talking about getting a class 3 license as the license pertains to a dealer in class 3 arms.

I have seen the suggestions about both the living trust and corporation.

One valid point I saw made regarding the corporation was that setting up a corporation only to purchase class 3 arms will almost certainly guarantee unwanted attention from BATFE. However, if you already have a valid business, the corporation might be a valid choice.

A few weeks ago, I had the link for an attorney that sets up living trusts. I will try to locate it.

All the trust or corporation does is eliminate the need for the law enforcement signature. You still pay the appropriate tax and wait for approval from BATFE, although it appears to be significantly shorter when you don't have to wait for a local signature.

I don't have all the answers or I would have already gone the trust route. I'll be reading the replies to learn as much as I can.

Unless you're wealthy, you can pretty much forget full auto as choices below $10,000 are extremely limited.

However, short barreled arms and suppressed arms can be had.

Even getting a class 01 FFL isn't easy like it used to be. They've pretty well eliminated the hobby licensees so unless you're considering going into it on a larger scale, it probably won't be worth it. I had a class 01 in the early '70's and would not consider trying to do it now.

However, a type 03 Curios & Relics licence is cheap ($30), easily attainable and will get you dealer prices at places like Brownell's and Midway. But you are limited in the selection of firearms you can purchase to those on BATFE's list or those over 50 years old.

[govnor]

Maybe I'm thinking about class 3 dealer then. There's a list here: http://www.classthreesupply.com/htbmachinegun.htm

Basically says what you can own in what state. I wouldn't mind being a class 3 dealer. As I read on one site though: Class 3 weapons cost between $10,000-$20,000... I suggest you pull the trigger faster. To me it might be a good investment though. As are all assault and high capacity arms since the government will probably enact another ban. I'm buying as much as I can while I can.

[govnor]

Unless you're wealthy, you can pretty much forget full auto as choices below $10,000 are extremely limited.

I agree with this, but I've met some older guys that seem pretty lax in letting some of their collection go to younger guys that are just as interested as they are. I'm hoping to get some deals in the future with these guys. Not that I would ever sell them or anything. In fact, I have a hard time letting any gun go unless it's to another like minded individual...

[NcongruNt]

Unless you're wealthy, you can pretty much forget full auto as choices below $10,000 are extremely limited.

I agree with this, but I've met some older guys that seem pretty lax in letting some of their collection go to younger guys that are just as interested as they are. I'm hoping to get some deals in the future with these guys. Not that I would ever sell them or anything. In fact, I have a hard time letting any gun go unless it's to another like minded individual...

Submachine guns can be had for considerably less than this. Granted, they're not the same animal as an automatic rifle, but they are Class III. A MAC-10 can be had for under $3000 if you look around. You can also get an Uzi for well under $10K.

[govnor]

Unless you're wealthy, you can pretty much forget full auto as choices below $10,000 are extremely limited.

I agree with this, but I've met some older guys that seem pretty lax in letting some of their collection go to younger guys that are just as interested as they are. I'm hoping to get some deals in the future with these guys. Not that I would ever sell them or anything. In fact, I have a hard time letting any gun go unless it's to another like minded individual...

Submachine guns can be had for considerably less than this. Granted, they're not the same animal as an automatic rifle, but they are Class III. A MAC-10 can be had for under $3000 if you look around. You can also get an Uzi for well under $10K.

All I really want is an MP5. I've shot one, full auto, and it was fun. It's addictive though. I could see myself spending ten grand on a gun. Not an Uzi though... I'd rather have a full auto AR or something... I hate the "transferable" deal. If you are a class 3 dealer with a legal letter, I think you can own new stuff like a SOCOM. I also like suppressors and short shotguns. Man, why didn't I pick a cheaper hobby?

[The Marshal]

Ok, a friend told me of this, so you are getting it 'filtered' thru my pea brain.

He said that there is a way to get a SINGLE WEAPON permit, which will allow you the ability to make it full auto,suppressed, etc. It is not the Class3, as this permit was only $75 one time fee.

The Sherriff (or Judge) was the one that approved it. It has something to do with collectable rifles.

Can anyone clarify/comfirm such an arrangement.

~Bill

[ScubaSigGuy]

Unless you're wealthy, you can pretty much forget full auto as choices below $10,000 are extremely limited.

I agree with this, but I've met some older guys that seem pretty lax in letting some of their collection go to younger guys that are just as interested as they are. I'm hoping to get some deals in the future with these guys. Not that I would ever sell them or anything. In fact, I have a hard time letting any gun go unless it's to another like minded individual...

Submachine guns can be had for considerably less than this. Granted, they're not the same animal as an automatic rifle, but they are Class III. A MAC-10 can be had for under $3000 if you look around. You can also get an Uzi for well under $10K.

All I really want is an MP5. I've shot one, full auto, and it was fun. It's addictive though. I could see myself spending ten grand on a gun. Not an Uzi though... I'd rather have a full auto AR or something... I hate the "transferable" deal. If you are a class 3 dealer with a legal letter, I think you can own new stuff like a SOCOM. I also like suppressors and short shotguns. Man, why didn't I pick a cheaper hobby?

There are a few different ways to go about getting an MP5. I am not an expert but I have friends who are. May i suggest that you check out HKpro.com and subguns.com. Study up on the difference between a registered reciever, registerd bolt, and registered sear pack or trigger pack beforte making any purchases. They each have different rules and yoiu will decide what works best for you. A registered trigger pack for an HK will cost around 15K, but then you can run it any claiber in a large variety of HK firearms.

[govnor]

There are a few different ways to go about getting an MP5. I am not an expert but I have friends who are. May i suggest that you check out HKpro.com and subguns.com. Study up on the difference between a registered reciever, registerd bolt, and registered sear pack or trigger pack beforte making any purchases. They each have different rules and yoiu will decide what works best for you. A registered trigger pack for an HK will cost around 15K, but then you can run it any claiber in a large variety of HK firearms.

Cool, I'll do this.

[p99guy]

I have one of the Revocable living trust set up...and it took 28 days mailbox to mailbox the last two transfers(they are much faster than they used to be) the Individual transfer I did before that took 36 days.

[p99guy]

Ok, a friend told me of this, so you are getting it 'filtered' thru my pea brain.

He said that there is a way to get a SINGLE WEAPON permit, which will allow you the ability to make it full auto,suppressed, etc. It is not the Class3, as this permit was only $75 one time fee.

The Sherriff (or Judge) was the one that approved it. It has something to do with collectable rifles.

Can anyone clarify/comfirm such an arrangement.

~Bill

Bill thats completely FALSE! and its not a permit either.

submitting a ATF form 1 and the things that go with it(and 200.00)
is how you get permission to build a short barreled rifle or suppressor.
Its a approved returned ATF form 1 with with a cancelled tax stamp
that allows you to have that item...its a special tax receipt.
There is no legal way an Individual can make a full auto and register it.
In may of 1986 a cap was put on the number of full autos that was availible for civy ownership...what was on the books in May 1986 is all that is availible for civys to buy or own(thats why they are sky high)
Any new machinegun a company makes can only be sold to a class 3 dealer as a "post may 1986 Dealer sample" and he must obtain a letter from a Law Enforcement agency requesting a demo of that type/model before he get even get one transfered to him, and they can be sold to govt agencies(thats all) and the dealer cant keep that gun if he gets out of the business.
The Machine guns that you or I could buy is called a"Transferable".
Before 1986 a transferable STEN SMG cost 450-600 dollars + the 200.00 tax, that same gun now is 5500.00+ 200.00 tax.

ATf form 4's is what you fill out when buying a machinegun or suppressor from a dealer.

if you dont have a trust the packet that goes to ATF is

two form 1's or 4's with the Chief Law Enforcement signoff filled out
two 18 United States Code compliance forms
two passport photos
two FBI "blue" fingerprint cards, done and signed by a local Dept.
one $200.00 check or postal money order.

with the revocable living trust, what gets sent in is:

two ATF form 1's or form 4's ..NO CHIEF LEO SIGNOFF NEEDED
one copy of "the certification of trust"
two 18 United Stes Code Compliance forms
one $200.00 check or postal money order

In Texas the Revocable living trust isnt filed at the Court House, there is no renewal like incorporating, it doesnt do anything to complicate your tax returns....there is no downside to having one, and it makes sure the property placed into the trust is done with as you had wished after your death...and it dont go though probate like a will does. You are the "Grantor and Trustee" of your trust and can place normal item in or out of the trust at your desire(you just fill out an addendom)

[govnor]

In Texas the Revocable living trust isnt filed at the Court House, there is no renewal like incorporating, it doesnt do anything to complicate your tax returns....there is no downside to having one, and it makes sure the property placed into the trust is done with as you had wished after your death...and it dont go though probate like a will does. You are the "Grantor and Trustee" of your trust and can place normal item in or out of the trust at your desire(you just fill out an addendom

Thanks P99! You do hear all kinds of things about class threes though that may or may not be true. I think half of the people I talk to just make it up. In The Marshall's defense, I'm sure he's heard some of the same types of hearsay. It's almost like that Lamborghini that goes 250 MPH, even though they've never made one that will go that fast...

One question I have is about the "revocable" trust. What does that mean? Does that mean that I can revoke it at any time or the government can? What you're saying is pretty much what the class 3 dealer was telling me. It's a lot easier to do it under the trust.

Also, I've heard that you can leave this trust to someone (like your wife or children), with the class 3 intact and that means that they now have the class 3 along with the weapons. Does that sound right to you? Could I also include a family member or loved one along with me in the trust so that they would also be class 3 legal?

What in the world do you have to do to become a class 3 dealer? I'm planning to get an FFL in the near future, so is that something I would have to do along with that?

Thanks again for the info! I'm serious about doing this.

[p99guy]

Yes, NFA weapons are the most misunderstood of them all.
The Revokable part is as you guessed..YOU can revoke, YOU have complete control of the items in the trust. You name a successor trustee that takes over in the event of your death( Usually your wife) and yes
they would legally have the NFA items in the trust as well as anything else in the trust (the NFA items are OWNED by the trust, not an individual) So whoever the trustee of the trust is...they control those weapons.....the trust dont allow Co- trustees per say(unlike a corporation that can have several officers)

The first step in getting special occupational taxpayer status(class 3 dealer) is to get your 01 FFL, An Employer ID number from IRS(even though you dont have any employees, and a Texas Sales Tax certificate from the State Comptroller's office.....
Then file the Special Occupational tax return "F 5630.7 - Special Tax Registration and Return National Firearms Act (NFA)" with 500.00 due
every year by Apr 1 I believe.
You will be visited by ATF about once a year, for them to check your bound books and Inventory while you hold dealer status.
You must be able to prove you are engaged in business, rather than holding a Dealer License for your own benefit alone. There is also storage requirements that have to be fullfilled as well(gun safes)

the list goes on and on.

[govnor]

Yes, NFA weapons are the most misunderstood of them all.
The Revokable part is as you guessed..YOU can revoke, YOU have complete control of the items in the trust. You name a successor trustee that takes over in the event of your death( Usually your wife) and yes
they would legally have the NFA items in the trust as well as anything else in the trust (the NFA items are OWNED by the trust, not an individual) So whoever the trustee of the trust is...they control those weapons.....the trust dont allow Co- trustees per say(unlike a corporation that can have several officers)

The first step in getting special occupational taxpayer status(class 3 dealer) is to get your 01 FFL, An Employer ID number from IRS(even though you dont have any employees, and a Texas Sales Tax certificate from the State Comptroller's office.....
Then file the Special Occupational tax return "F 5630.7 - Special Tax Registration and Return National Firearms Act (NFA)" with 500.00 due
every year by Apr 1 I believe.
You will be visited by ATF about once a year, for them to check your bound books and Inventory while you hold dealer status.
You must be able to prove you are engaged in business, rather than holding a Dealer License for your own benefit alone. There is also storage requirements that have to be fullfilled as well(gun safes)

the list goes on and on.

Okay...you've given me a LOT to think about! For one thing, I wouldn't have a class 3 weapon in my house without a serious gun safe. That's something I don't have yet, but plan to buy soon. I own a business, so I have a tax ID, but I would pretty much have to start a new business to deal with the class 3 license. Not a problem, but I don't know about that visit every year. Not that I have a big problem with it, but it's still kind of weird.

I think at this point I'll just get an FFL and start doing the gun show stuff. Besides, I like being around those like minded folks. I'm not worried about making much money other than a hobby. The class 3 stuff though...investment potential. That's why I'm buying assault rifles and high capacity autos (you know the next ban is coming). Well, that and the fact that I like to shoot them.