51% Sign Wording - "Weapon" versus concealed handgun

[FourTeeFive]

I'm confused about the official 51% sign working, as supplied by the TABC (see link below). They use the word weapon whereas the Texas Penal Code specifically talks about a "concealed handgun". These are two vastly different terms. It doesn't even say "concealed weapon", just "weapon". Yet the law itself seems to refer to a concealed handgun.

Does anyone here have any insight on this topic? What if one were to be in a 51%-posted facility but had an unloaded rifle in a case. Under the Texas Penal Code that does not appear to be illegal.

http://ftp.tabc.state.tx.us/publication ... pons51.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[apostate]

Texas Penal Code 46.02(c)

[FourTeeFive]

Texas Penal Code 46.02(c)

:

46.02 (c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third
degree if the offense is committed on any premises licensed or
issued a permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages.

That section only talks about handguns, illegal knives, and clubs.

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.46.pdf

[apostate]

Correct. Those are the weapons covered by 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS.

[FourTeeFive]

Correct. Those are the weapons covered by 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS.

So carrying an rifle (unloaded, just to keep it simple) is not regulated by any laws in TX? I couldn't find it under 30.06 either.

It seems really odd that the signs aren't clearer, and even more bizarre that even the penal code seems to mix weapon, handgun, and concealed handgun in their terminology.

[Jumping Frog]

... even more bizarre that even the penal code seems to mix weapon, handgun, and concealed handgun in their terminology.

Not bizarre at all. There are specific weapons defined that are unlawful to carry: "a handgun, illegal knife, or club", per Texas Penal Code § 46.02(a). Then there is an exemption made for licensees carrying a handgun, which must also be concealed.

Other weapons are legal.

[jbarn]

Correct. Those are the weapons covered by 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS.

So carrying an rifle (unloaded, just to keep it simple) is not regulated by any laws in TX? I couldn't find it under 30.06 either.

It seems really odd that the signs aren't clearer, and even more bizarre that even the penal code seems to mix weapon, handgun, and concealed handgun in their terminology.

As indicated, Penal Code Section 46.02 makes it unlawful to carry a handgun, illegal knife or club (weapons) on or about your person unless on your own premises, premises under your control, or a motor vehicle you own or is under your control. The offense is a misdemeanor UNLESS it is committed on a premises licensed for the sale or service of alcoholic beverages, then it is a felony.

Penal code 46.15 (b) makes carry of a handgun with a CHL legal and 46.02 does not apply. Since a CHL holder can carry, there is no felony for carry at a place licensed for the sale or service of alcoholic beverages under penal code 46.02.

Penal code 36.035 makes it unlawful to carry a HANDGUN on the premise of a place that derives 51% or more of its income for the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on premise consumption. The sign you refer to, the 51% sign, addresses CHL holders and non CHL holders. It replaces the blue sign that addresses only non CHL holders, so it uses the term "weapon", in reference to 46.02 and 46.035.

The terminology is correct.

[jbarn]

Correct. Those are the weapons covered by 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS.

So carrying an rifle (unloaded, just to keep it simple) is not regulated by any laws in TX? I couldn't find it under 30.06 either.

It seems really odd that the signs aren't clearer, and even more bizarre that even the penal code seems to mix weapon, handgun, and concealed handgun in their terminology.

As indicated, Penal Code Section 46.02 makes it unlawful to carry a handgun, illegal knife or club (weapons) on or about your person unless on your own premises, premises under your control, or a motor vehicle you own or is under your control. The offense is a misdemeanor UNLESS it is committed on a premises licensed for the sale or service of alcoholic beverages, then it is a felony.

Penal code 46.15 (b) makes carry of a handgun with a CHL legal and 46.02 does not apply. Since a CHL holder can carry, there is no felony for carry at a place licensed for the sale or service of alcoholic beverages under penal code 46.02.

Penal code 36.035 makes it unlawful to carry a HANDGUN on the premise of a place that derives 51% or more of its income for the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on premise consumption. The sign you refer to, the 51% sign, addresses CHL holders and non CHL holders. It replaces the blue sign that addresses only non CHL holders, so it uses the term "weapon", in reference to 46.02 and 46.035.

The terminology is correct.

Regarding rifles, several laws regulate them. See specifically penal code 42.01, disorderly conduct. Also, while not an offense for the person with the rifle, a TABC licensee commits an offense if he allows a firearm to be on the premises. An exception is made for CHL holders in non 51% locations.

[FourTeeFive]

Also, while not an offense for the person with the rifle, a TABC licensee commits an offense if he allows a firearm to be on the premises.

I've looked everywhere and cannot find anything that indicates that. Again, there is an amazing amount of vagueness in what I've read where the Penal Code seems to be specific and that TABC talks about weapons and concealed handguns like they're one and the same.

[Keith B]

Also, while not an offense for the person with the rifle, a TABC licensee commits an offense if he allows a firearm to be on the premises.

I've looked everywhere and cannot find anything that indicates that. Again, there is an amazing amount of vagueness in what I've read where the Penal Code seems to be specific and that TABC talks about weapons and concealed handguns like they're one and the same.

Not vague at all. If the sign or statute references 'concealed handgun' it only applies to a 'concealed handgun'. If the sign or statute references 'weapon', then it applies to all 'weapons' that are defined in TPC 46 'Weapons'. http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.46.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the case of the 51% sign, it specifically states 'weapon', licensed or unlicensed, so anything listed in the definitions of TPC 46 is illegal to carry there

[jbarn]

Also, while not an offense for the person with the rifle, a TABC licensee commits an offense if he allows a firearm to be on the premises.

I've looked everywhere and cannot find anything that indicates that. Again, there is an amazing amount of vagueness in what I've read where the Penal Code seems to be specific and that TABC talks about weapons and concealed handguns like they're one and the same.

The rifle law is not in the Penal Code, it is in the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Code.

Regarding weapon and handgun, I don't know how to explain it any better. It is not vague at all.

[FourTeeFive]

The rifle law is not in the Penal Code, it is in the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Code.

Regarding weapon and handgun, I don't know how to explain it any better. It is not vague at all.

So does the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Code supersede the Penal Code? Does one trump the other? Do police officers need to know both the Penal Code and the Texas Alcoholic Beverage code?

[FourTeeFive]

If the sign or statute references 'weapon', then it applies to all 'weapons' that are defined in TPC 46 'Weapons'. http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.46.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the case of the 51% sign, it specifically states 'weapon', licensed or unlicensed, so anything listed in the definitions of TPC 46 is illegal to carry there

[ Image ]

TPC 46 under "weapons" list a knife as:

(7) "Knife" means any bladed hand instrument that is capable of inflicting serious bodily injury or death by cutting or stabbing a person with the instrument.

So are all knives of any sort (since even a tiny pocket knife and surely kitchen cutlery fall under the above category) banned in 51% establishments since they are on the TPC 46 list under weapons?

[jbarn]

The rifle law is not in the Penal Code, it is in the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Code.

Regarding weapon and handgun, I don't know how to explain it any better. It is not vague at all.

So does the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Code supersede the Penal Code? Does one trump the other?

No and no. What would be contradicting that one would need to "trump" the other?

Do police officers need to know both the Penal Code and the Texas Alcoholic Beverage code?

Applicable sections, yes. As well as the Code of Criminal Procedure, Family Code, Health and Safety Code, Parks and Wildlife Code, Transportation Code....the code of their local jurisdiction.....

[jbarn]

If the sign or statute references 'weapon', then it applies to all 'weapons' that are defined in TPC 46 'Weapons'. http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.46.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the case of the 51% sign, it specifically states 'weapon', licensed or unlicensed, so anything listed in the definitions of TPC 46 is illegal to carry there

[ Image ]

TPC 46 under "weapons" list a knife as:

(7) "Knife" means any bladed hand instrument that is capable of inflicting serious bodily injury or death by cutting or stabbing a person with the instrument.

So are all knives of any sort (since even a tiny pocket knife and surely kitchen cutlery fall under the above category) banned in 51% establishments since they are on the TPC 46 list under weapons?

You are off track. Go back and read my first post in this thread. When used in the TABC signs, "weapon" refers to those listed in penal code 46.02, Unlawful Carrying Weapons. Handguns, Illegal Knives and Clubs.