Shot Gun Loads - Decision Made

[TEX]

I have two Remington 870s - one has adjustable rifle type sights and the other just has a brass bead that I snapped fiber optic over (actually in back of). Both 18-inch barrels with improved cylinders - no chokes. Over the years I have tried just about every brand of slug and buckshot in these two guns with marginal results. I have tried the expensive tactical loading from almost every manufacture that claims it holds a tight pattern and the high dollar slugs that are supposed to print nice groups even at 50 yards. Well they didn't for me and my 870s - still not satisfied. Stuff I had tried in the past (buckshot) would barely keep all pellets on an IDPA target at 15 yards and all the slug loads I tried gave 4-6 inch patterns at 15 yards and often had a flyer in a 5 shot group.

I have however recently come across two loads (both 2&3/4") that work very well, in both shotguns, and thought I would share that info in case someone wanted to try them in their scatter gun - your mileage of course may vary as most guns, even the same model, will often shoot differently. This buckshot and slug load do beautifully in both of my 870s and the recoil is very manageable.

00 Buckshot - Hornady 12 gauge Zombie Max. Exact same load as Hornady Critical Defense (Zombie Max was available at the time). This stuff will consistently print an 8-10 inch pattern at 15 yards and out of 20 rounds fired, not one pellet was a flyer. I may be wrong, but I credit this pattern to the loads above normal advertised velocity, which is 1600 fps (less time to spread out, I am thinking perhaps, maybe?). What I was using before was moving out (advertised) at 1325. The only drawback is that this Hornady load has only 8 pellets instead of 9 pellets as many others do, or have 12 pellets - the best I could find load up to that point. I figured 12 pellets would really get the job done, but eight 33 caliber pellet moving at high end pistol magnum speeds should get the job done as well.

Slug - Estate High Velocity Slug (green box). 1 ounce, max dram with a muzzle velocity of 1610 fps. It is a foster type slug and made in the US, This is inexpensive and may be found at Academy. At 15 yards, 5 rounds will consistently print a clover leaf and happen to hit exactly the same spot as the center of the Hornady buck shot pattern.

I am done hunting down a usable load for my 870s. The Hornady buck shot comes in black and the Estate slugs come in red, so I can quickly tell them apart. Give this stuff a try and see how you like it. The runners up, by the way, were Federal 00 Buck 2&3/4 inch 9 pellet standard load, and Brenneke 2&3/4 inch 1&1/4 ounce Heavy Field Short Magnum (green), which I believe is exactly the same load as their Special Forces Short Magnum (red)

Anyway there it is - hope someone finds this info useful.

TEX

[Pawpaw]

For buckshot, Federal Premium with their Flitecontrol wad shoots tighter than any I've seen.

When AndyC & I tested the 00 load (PD132 00), it shot into one hole at 15 yards. viewtopic.php?f=87&t=67957&p=838405#p838405" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AndyC tested the #1 buck (LE132 1B) out to 15 yards and had similar results. viewtopic.php?f=87&t=69305" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I recently tested the #1 buck out to 20 yards and only had a 9" spread. That stuff is amazing from an 18" cylinder bore barrel.

[LeonCarr]

The only thing you might have to worry about is if you use deadly force, it goes to a grand jury, and they find out you used "ZOMBIE MAX" ammunition in your shotgun. I would use something that does not glorify the whole "Zombie Apocalypse" thing, like the Hornady 00 Buckshot that performs the same as "ZOMBIE MAX". Don't give a grand jury or a prosecutor any more ammunition, pun intended.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

[WildBill]

00 Buckshot - Hornady 12 gauge Zombie Max. Exact same load as Hornady Critical Defense (Zombie Max was available at the time). This stuff will consistently print an 8-10 inch pattern at 15 yards and out of 20 rounds fired, not one pellet was a flyer. I may be wrong, but I credit this pattern to the loads above normal advertised velocity, which is 1600 fps (less time to spread out, I am thinking perhaps, maybe?). What I was using before was moving out (advertised) at 1325. The only drawback is that this Hornady load has only 8 pellets instead of 9 pellets as many others do, or have 12 pellets - the best I could find load up to that point. I figured 12 pellets would really get the job done, but eight 33 caliber pellet moving at high end pistol magnum speeds should get the job done as well.
TEX

Why would you be concerned about a tight pattern?

What range would you expect to use the buckshot for self defense?

What difference would it make I you had a 10 inch or a 20 inch pattern?

It seems that a 20 inch pattern would be more likely to hit your target, maybe with less pellets, but it seems to me that getting with 6 pellets would do the job.

With a Remington 870 you can also have another round fired in a second or less.

[Pawpaw]

Why would you be concerned about a tight pattern?

What range would you expect to use the buckshot for self defense?

What difference would it make I you had a 10 inch or a 20 inch pattern?

It seems that a 20 inch pattern would be more likely to hit your target, maybe with less pellets, but it seems to me that getting with 6 pellets would do the job.

With a Remington 870 you can also have another round fired in a second or less.

Because every projectile that goes down range has a lawyer tied to it. You are responsible for each and every one.

If a projectile misses your intended target, how do you know where it will wind up? I don't want a "good shoot" to wind up having very bad consequences as a result of errant pellets.

[A-R]

Tex, I'm also wondering if you tested the Federal Premium FlightControl buckshot loads? I've seen them pattern at 5-6 inches or less at 20-25 yards from both Mossberg 500 & Rem 870 guns with 18-inch barrels. At 15 yards, the group into the size of a fist. These loads are the standard by which all other buckshot is judged, IMHO. I have not shot the Hornady load, but heard from multiple sources that it groups similarly. Doubt you could go wrong with either.

Wildbill, the reason to be concerned with buckshot spread pattern for a self-defense shotgun is to avoid the liability of shot sailing past your intended target and doing unintended damage to persons. &/or property beyond your intended target. Just like with handguns and rifles, you're responsible for every projectile that leaves the muzzle of your firearm. This is of course of highest importance in urban/suburban settings.

Most of the cheaper-priced standard buckshot found at Academy, Wal Mart etc. is intended for hunting and not self defense. It spreads wider (and is loaded hotter, recoils more) because hitting the target is most important and a few balls of errant shot less problematic in rural hunting surroundings.

[ShootDontTalk]

Why would you be concerned about a tight pattern?

What range would you expect to use the buckshot for self defense?

What difference would it make I you had a 10 inch or a 20 inch pattern?

It seems that a 20 inch pattern would be more likely to hit your target, maybe with less pellets, but it seems to me that getting with 6 pellets would do the job.

With a Remington 870 you can also have another round fired in a second or less.

Let me point you to The Box O Truth website. One reason for tight patterns is the errant round problem. Another is the fact that a shotgun, even shooting buckshot at close range, is much more effective when delivering a tight pattern. Federal #1 LE132 delivers very tight patterns and is the choice of many who must rely on the power of a shotgun for defense. Check out the website though.

[TEX]

Thanks for all the input folks. I had not tried Federal Premium with their Flitecontrol wad, but guess I will give them a try - had not run across any or I probably would have. The point of a tighter patter is twofold. One, as someone pointed out, it is more effective, and secondly as someone else pointed out, I want to keep all of the pellets on the intended target. I figure my maximum normal range for 00 is 15 yards – under stress, while having a good chance of keeping all pellets on target and nothing getting away to hit something I did not intend to hit.

As far as the liability angle of using “Zombie” ammunition, I frankly don’t buy into the whole argument although Massad Ayoob seems to, but keep in mind he is from the northeast where a lot folks' minds are not right when it comes to a defensive shooting. Here, I feel safe that a good shoot is a good shoot regardless of the ammunition used. Besides, I could always make the argument that I chose it because it only has 8 pellets and I thought 9 or 12 was cruel and unusual, etc. (and it was the only one I could find with only 8 pellets). I think you can see where I am going with this.

Anyway thanks for the tip on the Fed with Flitecontrol wad - I will hunt some down and check it out. I really wish someone made a #1 Buck Tungsten load that held a tight pattern and moved out at 1400fps plus. I suspect that might prove to be the perfect Buckshot load for defense. I tried some Tungsten loads once, in a T size I think it was, and the pattern was like a blunderbuss. Ok I guess if your target is never more than 5 yards away. I cut open a shell and the pellets were not uniform size and many had jagged edges - junk in my opinion.

I am still waiting for the armor piercing depleted uranium slugs that move out at 3,000 fps and shoot 1" groups at 100 yards. Let me know if any of you run across any of that stuff.

TEX

[RoyGBiv]

AndyC tested the #1 buck (LE132 1B) out to 15 yards and had similar results. viewtopic.php?f=87&t=69305" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Where'd you find this?
I can find the "00", but not the #1..

+100 for Flitecontrolwad!!

[Pawpaw]

AndyC tested the #1 buck (LE132 1B) out to 15 yards and had similar results. viewtopic.php?f=87&t=69305" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Where'd you find this?
I can find the "00", but not the #1..

+100 for Flitecontrolwad!!

I ordered mine from Lucky Gunner, but they're out now.

I have a couple of friends who are looking for it too. Right now, it appears to be nonexistent, for all practical purposes.

I just used the 00 until I could find the #1.

[RoyGBiv]

AndyC tested the #1 buck (LE132 1B) out to 15 yards and had similar results. viewtopic.php?f=87&t=69305" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Where'd you find this?
I can find the "00", but not the #1..

+100 for Flitecontrolwad!!

I have a couple of friends who are looking for it too. Right now, it appears to be nonexistent, for all practical purposes.

I just used the 00 until I could find the #1.

If you're looking for another guy to split a case... count me in if you find some.
very rarely it appears over at sgammo.com, but only by the case and it goes fast.
5-6 (or so) 5-packs is enough for me.

[mgood]

For buckshot, Federal Premium with their Flitecontrol wad shoots tighter than any I've seen.

When AndyC & I tested the 00 load (PD132 00), it shot into one hole at 15 yards. viewtopic.php?f=87&t=67957&p=838405#p838405" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AndyC tested the #1 buck (LE132 1B) out to 15 yards and had similar results. viewtopic.php?f=87&t=69305" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I recently tested the #1 buck out to 20 yards and only had a 9" spread. That stuff is amazing from an 18" cylinder bore barrel.

Longest straight line in my house is about 40 feet. Longest probable shooting distance is more like 30 feet.
My 870 12ga is a dedicated home defense weapon. It is currently loaded with Federal LE132 00 with Flight Control Wad. But I'm looking for some PD156 4B.
My shortened Mossberg 500 20ga was my home defense weapon before I bought the 870. It's now a backup/hand to a friend weapon and I have PD256 4B for it.

[ShootDontTalk]

Federal LE1321B here:
https://www.gtdist.com/ProductDetail.as ... FC-LE1321B

Just to add: I learned a long time ago that for power you use a shotgun. For power and accuracy you use a rifle. Our home has two ready weapons (long guns) for home defense: a 12 gauge loaded with Federal LE1321B and an M4 with 64gr Hornady PSP. The shotgun has an XS Big Dot night sight and a mounted flashlight. The M4 has an EOTech and a flashlight mounted. I have several shotguns and after patterning about 20 different loads, I settled on the LE132. It performed well ahead of the others. Some by a wide margin.

[Pawpaw]

Federal LE1321B here:
https://www.gtdist.com/ProductDetail.as ... FC-LE1321B

Just to add: I learned a long time ago that for power you use a shotgun. For power and accuracy you use a rifle. Our home has two ready weapons (long guns) for home defense: a 12 gauge loaded with Federal LE1321B and an M4 with 64gr Hornady PSP. The shotgun has an XS Big Dot night sight and a mounted flashlight. The M4 has an EOTech and a flashlight mounted. I have several shotguns and after patterning about 20 different loads, I settled on the LE132. It performed well ahead of the others. Some by a wide margin.

GT Distributors is out of stock. Notice that page is missing the "Add to cart" button.

One of those friends I mentioned above called them a couple of days ago and got that word.

[ShootDontTalk]

Thanks, that figures. The older we get the more easily we are fooled by these confounded computing machines. I didn't look for 00 though. That load is virtually identical where patterning is concerned. The #1 is more effective in the wounding mechanism.

Sorry if I got any hopes up.