New User Several General Questions

[OleWarSkuleAlum]

First of all I would like to introduce myself. I have been a CHL holder since I was 21 years old in the states of NV, UT, FL, and AL. This is my first renewal on the majority of these and I am currently stationed at Fort Bliss, TX. My primary state of residence when I was 21 years old was NV, so I took the NV course and mailed in my applications for both UT and FL. That was easy and painless. When I was stationed in AL I simply went to the Dale County Sheriff's office and he on the spot printed and laminated my CHL with zero questions asked. When I took the CCW course in Clark Country, NV it was instructed by a 30 year veteran of the LVMPD. It was a two day course and he went IN-DEPTH into the laws and regulations surrounding any and all aspects of CCW in NV. The best part of the class was since he was a 30 year retired LEO he also talked in depth about how the LVMPD and other local law enforcement agencies interpreted different aspects of the law (whether their interpretations where correct or not). That was the only CHL class I have as a reference point.

So obviously I just took a CHL class here for TX at the Fort Bliss Rod and Gun Club. I was extremely disappointed in the material covered. Laws and regulations was only a very minor 1 hr block of instruction and it was at the end of a 10 hour day. The instructor had zero LE background just some random guy off the street that attended a class sufficient to call himself a CHL instructor. When asked very pertinent questions his go to response always was, "I cannot give legal advice, or the slides DPS gave me doesn't cover that" He also was incorrect on a number of different topics so his credibility is zero in my eyes. Therefore, I have a few questions after doing a lot of research on my own...

Regarding 30.06

Again my background is NV where signs have no force of law whatsoever. My instructor taught that any sign even gunbuster signs or the simple writing of "No guns allowed" constituted effective notice under 30.06. He even went around to people in the class with his ipad showing gunbuster signs and asking, "carry or no carry." He ensured everyone said no carry. I know this to not be the case. The law is written as such...

§ 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED
HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of
Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another
without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder
with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed
handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice
if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to
act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written
communication.
(c) In this section:
(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section
30.05(b).
(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by
Section 46.035(f).
(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written
language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06,
Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed
handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411,
Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this
property with a concealed handgun"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by
Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with
block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner
clearly visible to the public.
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section
that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is
owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or
other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying
the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.

Added by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 1261, § 23, eff. Sept. 1,
1997. Amended by Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 62, § 9.24, eff.
Sept. 1, 1999; Acts 2003, 78th Leg., ch. 1178, § 2, eff. Sept. 1,
2003.

I understand that it says if there is a sign that is posted it must be in English and Spanish and have the exact wording as described in 30.06(c)(3)(A). What exactly constitutes a sign as opposed to a written communication (card or other document)?

Regarding Places Weapons Prohibited

My TX CHL instructor claimed we could not carry into city parks if it was posted under 30.06. As I understand, if it is owned by the government and doesn't fall under Sec 46.03 I can carry there. Can I carry in city parks regardless if they are posted improperly or not?

Say for example in this theoretical scenario I want to enter City Hall with my CHL. However there are offices of the court in there. It is only one office in the entire building. Does Sec 46.03(a)(3) (on the premises of any government court or offices utilized by the court, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the court;) prevent me from bringing my CHL into City Hall or just the offices of the court?

The CHL instructor also told everyone religious places of worship, hospitals, nursing homes, and amusement parks were 100% off limits no matter what. I also know that to be false unless given effective notice under 30.06.


These are few of the questions I could come up with off the top of my head. Sorry for the wordiness of my post and thank you in advance for the help.

[tbrown]

Welcome to the forum.

So obviously I just took a CHL class here for TX at the Fort Bliss Rod and Gun Club. I was extremely disappointed in the material covered. Laws and regulations was only a very minor 1 hr block of instruction and it was at the end of a 10 hour day.

That's unfortunate. The laws pertaining to firearms and use of force should be the bulk of the class, in my opinion. Unfortunately, some instructors don't know the law so they fill the time with tall tales and horse hockey.

Again my background is NV where signs have no force of law whatsoever. My instructor taught that any sign even gunbuster signs or the simple writing of "No guns allowed" constituted effective notice under 30.06.

He's wrong. Any oral notice has force of law but signs must meet specific requirements, as you seem to realize.

What exactly constitutes a sign as opposed to a written communication (card or other document)?

A jury is the finder of fact. However, I think most people would agree an employee manual is written communication, so it must have the correct words (for trespassing to apply) but the letters don't have to be so big.

Another example might be an admission ticket. If the 30.06 language is on the ticket, I understand that to be written communication, even if it's 8 point font and you forgot your reading glasses.

Say for example in this theoretical scenario I want to enter City Hall with my CHL. However there are offices of the court in there. It is only one office in the entire building. Does Sec 46.03(a)(3) (on the premises of any government court or offices utilized by the court, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the court;) prevent me from bringing my CHL into City Hall or just the offices of the court?

A jury is the finder of fact. I don't know any case law on this subject but IANAL.

[C-dub]

OleWarSkuleAlum, nice handle BTW,

You are correct on both of your questions.

I am not and have never been a CHL instructor nor a LEO nor a lawyer. You'll get all manor of qualities of instructors even if they have been or are a LEO or Lawyer as with just about an other profession. I've had my CHL for almost 12 years now and have taken the class three times. Due to recent changes in TX laws I do not have to take the class again, but if I did and I found myself in that instructors class I might be inclined to ask for my money back if he continued to instruct so poorly. And I might say so loud enough for the rest of the class to hear.

Also, regarding the lack of information in the TX CHL class, although it should have been better, it's more than you got in Alabama.

Welcome to the forum and thank you from an old sailor.

[jbarn]

So obviously I just took a CHL class here for TX at the Fort Bliss Rod and Gun Club. I was extremely disappointed in the material covered. Laws and regulations was only a very minor 1 hr block of instruction and it was at the end of a 10 hour day.



.

You took a ten hour class? This year?

[C-dub]

So obviously I just took a CHL class here for TX at the Fort Bliss Rod and Gun Club. I was extremely disappointed in the material covered. Laws and regulations was only a very minor 1 hr block of instruction and it was at the end of a 10 hour day.



.

You took a ten hour class? This year?

I also wondered about, but forgot to ask. Might just be one more thing that instructor doesn't know about. Hope he's a legitimate instructor.

[OleWarSkuleAlum]

Yes it was 10 hours total 8am-6pm. That is not to say ten hours of classroom instruction. We did 4 hours of classroom instruction as is required. We spent 3 hours at the range qualifying 25 people. The rest of the time was filled with him telling us his opinion on how Florida law isn't written correctly and how Zimmerman in his opinion was guilty.

[jbarn]

Yes it was 10 hours total 8am-6pm. That is not to say ten hours of classroom instruction. We did 4 hours of classroom instruction as is required. We spent 3 hours at the range qualifying 25 people. The rest of the time was filled with him telling us his opinion on how Florida law isn't written correctly and how Zimmerman in his opinion was guilty.

3 hours for 25 people? How many lanes did he have available? 1?

And to be fair, with the topics the state mandates, one hour is not unreasonable for carry laws.

I seriously hope you report your instructor to the state.

[OleWarSkuleAlum]

Handgun use, non-violent dispute, safe storage, and use of force all were one hour each. Use of force is the only category he touched on laws.

We had 15 lanes available but between each round he took 10 minutes to critique listening skills, coach, analyze targets, etc.

I would report him but I'm just of the opinion cooperate and graduate. I've been CC'ing now for 5 years I just feel sorry for the new people I wouldn't feel confident at all going out and CC'ing if that was my first class, but on the other hand they never knew better.

[AF-Odin]

Welcome to the forum, Texas and Ft Bliss. Sorry to hear about the quality of instruction you received. Not as an excuse, but now that the class has been cut to a minimum of 4 and maximum of 6 hours, it can be difficult to cover adequately what are referred to as the four food groups: Use of Force, Handgun Use, Non-Violent Dispute Resolution, and Safe Storage in the alotted time. The DPS requires that these topics be taught and instructors are required to report how much time was spent on each topic. If any additional topics are covered, these must also be reported and the time spent on them. However, we are not allowed to go over the maximum of 6 hours for the academic portion regardless of additional topics or "war stories" told.

Personally, I do not devote a lot of time to the safe storage beyond showing a few examples and covering the laws regarding making a firearm accessible, etc. Dispute Resolution gets a fair piece, but concentration is on Handgun Use and Use of Force with emphasis on legalities and precedent. Because of where I teach and my clientele, the additional topic I cover is Firearms and Military Installations for about 30 minutes covering DOD, DA and local Post regs. My class generally runs about 5 hours for all academics. As for the shooting portion, it is a demonstration of skill and unless there is a safety problem, should go fairly quickly as there should be no analyzing of targets or instruction and coaching going on. Last class ran 2 relays in under 45 minutes.

Understand your concerns about your course as I have had a Texas CHL since 1996 and previously held an Alabama and Califorinia (yep, that state). Old school long initial course and then several renewals until the requirement was eliminated. When I held an Alabama License, it was go to the County Sheriff, show him my military ID and a utility bill proving I lived in the county, pay the money and walk out with a license. In California (mind you, this was in the 70s and NOT in one of the liberal bastions) it was the same process except that the Sheriff had to see utility bills or orders showing that I had been in the state 6 months. Again, it was walk in, show the papers and walk out.

However, back to your initial issue. Apparently your course met the minimum state requirement and the CHL-100 was issued. The key now is to really educate yourself on the laws, STAY AWAY FROM JUAREZ, carry LEGALLY often, and get involved with the other activities at the Ft Bliss R&G (understand they have IDPA, IPSC, and 3-gun comps there.

[TexasGal]

Welcome to the forum! Sorry to hear of your experience with the CHL Instructor. You seem well able to find out the correct information for yourself, but as you pointed out, your classmates may not even know they were misinformed. Whatever the instructor's background is, It comes down to the personal commitment each has made to knowing the course and teaching it correctly as the State mandates. Some people just believe they know better and want to do it their way. The DPS will check on Instructors they receive complaints about. If they find the Instructor is not conducting classes adequately, they will take the appropriate action depending on how serious the infractions are.

[baldeagle]

I suggest you report this "instructor" to the state. Not only is he giving you false information, but he's requiring you to stay to hear him ramble on about completely irrelevant subjects. He needs to have his instructor's license revoked.

[infoman]

You can't revoke someone's instructor certification for that.

[Cedar Park Dad]

Handgun use, non-violent dispute, safe storage, and use of force all were one hour each. Use of force is the only category he touched on laws.

We had 15 lanes available but between each round he took 10 minutes to critique listening skills, coach, analyze targets, etc.

I would report him but I'm just of the opinion cooperate and graduate. I've been CC'ing now for 5 years I just feel sorry for the new people I wouldn't feel confident at all going out and CC'ing if that was my first class, but on the other hand they never knew better.

1. Welcome. Also welcome to Texas. Never disparage our great state (Texas is Bestest State!), queso, or Texas A&M. You are encouraged to make fun of UT. Its the law.

2. Ask questions here whenever you have one. People here are helpful.

3. I wouldn't worry about the instructor. Under new laws (THANKS CHAS/TSRA) I believe you can renew online - forgive my ignorance as the law changed right after our last renewal and I haven't kept up on that change.

You may submit the renewal application online at Concealed Handgun Licensing Online you may download the renewal application form, complete and mail it with the required fees. Printable application forms are available in the Downloadable Forms section.

We will use existing fingerprints and photos on file for renewal applications. However, sometimes the quality of those prints originally submitted no longer meets the State or FBI standards. If we are unable to use the fingerprints on file, you will be notified to obtain a new set of prints along with instructions on where you must be fingerprinted.

You must also to submit a completed application, pay the required fees and submit all of the required supplemental forms and materials.

[Selina Kyle]

If you REALLY want to know the "skinny" on CHL in Texas, you need to do whatever it takes to attend one of Charles' classes on the subject.

This is not his CHL class (which is probably excellent also, but I cannot say first-hand), but a couple of times per year he does a "special" class. Do whatever you have to do to get to one, just do it.

I would love to attend this!! My CHL class was awesome (Crossfire), but to learn from Charles would just be amazing!! I will have to keep an eye out for this and see if hubs wants to go.

Glad you mentioned this!!