Ooops! I did it again.....

[The Annoyed Man]

.....buy another gun....that is.



Actually, I bartered rather than bought. I'm building a new website for an FFL and getting paid with (among other things) a FN SCAR 17S instead of dollars. Been wanting one of these for a long time. I need room in the safe, so I'm selling my AR-10 to make room for it (viewtopic.php?f=20&t=75838" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, if your interested).

Anyway, I am very impressed with how light this rifle is for an 18" barreled .308 battle rifle. I weighed it on my wife's trusty Cuisinart kitchen scale, and it came in at exactly the 8 lbs that FN claims for it. The rifle came with one magazine, and Brownells sells FN brand mags (they are proprietary) for $37.15 each.

Instead of running out and buying another expensive optic, I'm going to save some money by remounting my 4x32 ACOG onto my AR15 DMR rifle, and taking the Vortex 4-16x50 Viper PST that is currently on that AR and remount onto the SCAR instead.

Then......and here comes the really hard part.....I'm going to have to drag myself to the range and get these rifles zeroed again. Darn the luck. I also bought a box of 240 rounds of remanufactured 168 grain HPBT from Freedom Munitions ($170 for 240 rounds of .308 is pretty good, even for remanufactured ammo), and that was delivered earlier today.

I'll be back and let you all know how I did.

[CoffeeNut]

Very nice! I've been drooling over one of those for ages.

[airborned]

So have I. Good score TAM.

[The Annoyed Man]

So have I. Good score TAM.

airborned, have you had yours long enough to develop an impression or uncover any quirks?

[CC Italian]

I have been toying with the idea of one but I have no experience with the 308 in such a small package. Not sure it would be a good almost 3k investment for someone with only M1A and ar15 experience. Both my father and father in law have a ar15 but it just doesn't bring that joy to my heart that I get when shooting that 7.62 X 51 that is so addictive to shoot. I was also looking into the 6.8 spc which from my very limited knowledge ( I have only shot one) seems to be a nice compromise being that it is the smaller 15 platform with the .277 round.

Needless to say please tell us how it runs. I am also interested if you could tell me TAM how it recoils between a 16-18 inch AR10 and M1A scout. If you have shot both.

[The Annoyed Man]

Range/target pics are expected - you know the drill :)

Actually Andy, I'd like for both of us to shoot my SCAR and your FAL side by side and compare notes. It might make for an informative thread here. The more I handle this rifle, the more it reminds me of shooting your FAL that day. In building this rifle (the H select-fire version), FNH has positioned itself to once again become "the right arm of the free world". That may be a case of hyperventilation a little bit, but given the mandate under which FNH originally designed the SCAR and SCAR Heavy, and given the general dissatisfaction with the 5.56 cartridge in certain kinds of urban and long-range desert and mountain combat, it isn't beyond conceivable that they might win in a head-to-head competition against other .308 caliber battle rifles if the U.S. military ever decides to place issued .308s in the hands of regular ground troops.

The biggest hill to surmount is price - this thing is bloody expensive - but that can be achieved with economies of scale. Also, FNH has perhaps made a strategic error (at least for the short term), but that error is remediable. The 16s is manufactured in the United States, where the bulk of the (legal) civilian market for the product exists. However, the 17s is manufactured in Belgium, thousands of miles away from its largest customer base - as most europeans cannot easily get their hands on one. Since FNH already has a significant manufacturing presence in the U.S., where, in addition to the 16s, they also manufacture M16s/M4s, as well as M240B and M249 SAWs, and other military weapons for the U.S. military, it seems like ti would be fairly easy for FNH to transfer manufacture of the 17s to the U.S. By offering a $3,000 rifle in a market space populated by $1,500 to $2,500 rifles (including some gas-piston models) they are less than competitive. You have to REALLY want one to buy one. They could be a lot more competitive if they could take the transportation/importation costs out of the picture.

And by the way, the 17s is subject the same import restrictions as AKs. The rifles arrive here completed, and then some of the parts are replaced with American-made parts to satisfy that requirement, and that drives the cost up too.

But if they could get the price of this thing down into the same range as other gas-piston .308 battle rifles currently being offered, they could sweep the market. It is a nice rifle.

I have been toying with the idea of one but I have no experience with the 308 in such a small package. Not sure it would be a good almost 3k investment for someone with only M1A and ar15 experience. Both my father and father in law have a ar15 but it just doesn't bring that joy to my heart that I get when shooting that 7.62 X 51 that is so addictive to shoot. I was also looking into the 6.8 spc which from my very limited knowledge ( I have only shot one) seems to be a nice compromise being that it is the smaller 15 platform with the .277 round.

Needless to say please tell us how it runs. I am also interested if you could tell me TAM how it recoils between a 16-18 inch AR10 and M1A scout. If you have shot both.

I'll let you know. I have owned an M1A loaded, and I currently own a (for sale) AR-10. Until now, I would have called the M1A the King of Battle Rifles. It is accurate, runs reliably, and beautiful to look at. It also speaks to me from an emotional place. My AR-10 is a heavy-barreled SASS rifle, and it is more accurate than the M1A was, but I have no emotional attachment to it.....one reason I'm selling it. The M1A weighed in at about 9 lb + mount and scope, so call it 10.5-11 lbs all up with a loaded mag. I weighed my AR-10 just the day before yesterday, and without mount, scope, or magazine, it weighs 11 lb 5 oz. It is heavy. Recoil in those two guns is, well....... .308 recoil, with the lighter M1A would have slightly more of it, mitigated by the gas-piston design. The AR-10 recoil feels a little sharper, but that is because the design of the muzzle device directs all recoil straight back with no muzzle flip at all. Not harder, just sharper. The SCAR, from what I have read—meaning I won't know if it's true until I try it myself—is supposed to be the softest shooting .308 battle rifle, because of the weight of the reciprocating mass of the bolt/carrier system, as well as the mitigating effects of the gas-piston system....... but I don't know yet for sure.

Real world reviews I've read on forums and such say that owners are getting 1-2 MOA at 100 yards using the supplied iron sights. That dog won't hunt with my eyes, but we'll see how it performs with a 4-16 Viper PST on it. That said, all of the reviews I've read, amateur and professional alike, have praised the accuracy of FN hammer-forged barrels, which are exceedingly accurate across their product line. Witness the reputation of the FNAR, for example.

So we'll see. It should be a fun day. Sadly, I won't have time to get to the range until next week some time. I'll be going crazy in the interim.

[Dadtodabone]

I also bought a box of 240 rounds of remanufactured 168 grain HPBT from Freedom Munitions ($170 for 240 rounds of .308 is pretty good, even for remanufactured ammo), and that was delivered earlier today.

500 rounds at $299.00. New IMI M80.
https://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm ... 18|830|848" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[The Annoyed Man]

I also bought a box of 240 rounds of remanufactured 168 grain HPBT from Freedom Munitions ($170 for 240 rounds of .308 is pretty good, even for remanufactured ammo), and that was delivered earlier today.

500 rounds at $299.00. New IMI M80.
https://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm ... 18|830|848" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not a bad price, and I'll look into it, but that is standard ball ammo, and I was paying 170 for 240 rounds of match ammo. Freedom Munitions' price for 480 rounds of 147 grain ball is $249.99...... 20 rounds less, but $50.00 less too: http://www.freedommunitions.com/308-Win ... -c0480.htm

[CC Italian]

That's kind of how I felt about the M1A scout I shot. Love at first sight! It was kind of like the first time you hold and shoot a 1911 but of course in a rifle. I liked the scout with it's 18 barrel but I am even thinking about the socom seeing that I am one of those guys who can honestly say I have never shot any game past 150 yards and honestly for me it will be a do it all if you will rifle. The scout was nice but unless the muzzle flip is drastically worse the socom, scar heavy 16 or M&P 10 or ruger sr 762 are the ones I am interested in. I know you can build one for cheaper but I am not looking for match grade and honestly if I can hold 2-3 inchs at 100 yards I am fine with that.

[The Annoyed Man]

That's kind of how I felt about the M1A scout I shot. Love at first sight! It was kind of like the first time you hold and shoot a 1911 but of course in a rifle. I liked the scout with it's 18 barrel but I am even thinking about the socom seeing that I am one of those guys who can honestly say I have never shot any game past 150 yards and honestly for me it will be a do it all if you will rifle. The scout was nice but unless the muzzle flip is drastically worse the socom, scar heavy 16 or M&P 10 or ruger sr 762 are the ones I am interested in. I know you can build one for cheaper but I am not looking for match grade and honestly if I can hold 2-3 inchs at 100 yards I am fine with that.

Whichever you settle on, be sure to take into account the availability and type of ammo that rifle will need.

At 1:11, any iteration of the M1A will handle bullets of 147 - 175 grain fairly well, but the sweet-spot is in the 165-168 grain range. But if you buy a barrel shorter than 18", you're going to start affecting the velocity, which can affect terminal performance on target. And, velocity can affect ballistic coefficient (BC), and BC affects effective range and accuracy. So with a 16" barrel and a 1:11 twist, unless I could find a magic handload, I'd avoid any bullets over 168 grain as they'll be too slow......or at least slower than you'd like. Also, if you load heavy bullets up too hot, you can bend an M1A's operating rod. Not good. My M1A had the full 22" barrel, and velocity (and therefore BC) was a non-issue, although hot, heavy loads still ran the risk of bending the op-rod. I once ran a couple of boxes of Hornady 180 grain Superformance through my M1A, and freaked out afterward when I read the warning about not using this load in heavier bullets in M1A rifles, for op-rod reasons. Fortunately, mine was not damaged.....but you can bet that I stopped using that ammo in that rifle.

The SCAR is a 1:12 16" barrel, so even though it will also handle up to 175 grain bullets reasonably well, it will get better velocity out of 147 - 168 grain bullets, with the same variables as above. Further, 1:12 barrels will not maximize the stability offered by 175 grain bullets like a 1:10 barrel can. So given the shorter barrel and the slower twist, 168 grain and under are the better choice. The rifle was made to NATO requirements, and the standard NATO ball is a 147-150 grain bullet., so........ Also, the SCAR barrel is polygonal rifled, which tends to yield very slightly higher muzzle velocities, all other variables being equaled (as well as making it easier to clean), which might possibly affect ballistics.

My AR-10 has a 1:10 18" polygonal rifled Noveske barrel. Polygonal rifling in an AR-10 is the exception rather than the rule. Most have standard rifling, so results would be a little bit different than with mine, but still close. A 1:10 twist barrel loves a 175 grain SMK......flat loves them. But, being a heavy bullet for caliber, you won't get the best performance out of a 175 with a less than 18" barrel. It will be pretty decent, but the heavy for caliber bullet combined with a short for caliber barrel will hamper the results you could have gotten with a 168. And 1:10 twists tend not to like lighter bullets, so your best range is 165-180 grain, with the 173 or 175 grainers being about perfect......unless you have a 16" barrel.....then, see above. :/

AndyC graciously allowed me to shoot his FAL one day, and I was impressed with the robust design of the thing and the variable gas-piston system. But the one question I had, which Andy couldn't answer either....at least at the time, was why FN would have given the FAL a 1:10 twist, when that is not the optimum rate for a rifle designed to almost exclusively be used with standard NATO ball available in the field, and 1:12 or 1:11 would make more sense. A 1:10 twist in a battle rifle is a little hard to for me to understand, which I am certain is why FNH designed the SCAR with a 1:12 twist, and Springfield has used a 1:11 twist — both twists being conducive to using standard ball ammo. In the case of my AR-10, it will shoot heavy bullets exceedingly well—in fact the Noveske barrel has been optimized for the 7.62x51 LR 175 grain cartridge—but it is a civilian weapon. The Knights Armament M110 and M110K1—both designed for the military—both use a 1:11 twist just like the M1A does, which gives them some tactical versatility. By comparison, Knights commercial offering in a .308 rifle—the SR25—has a 1:10 twist. I am certain that it is because civilians have the luxury of ammo choices not really available to the military.

All different answers to the same question: "how do you flatten a man at 600 meters with a man-portable rifle". Very interesting stuff. But if you are a traditionalist, you've just got to love the M1A. You'll be happy with it if you buy one. I have a feeling that this SCAR is going to be a keeper.

[The Annoyed Man]

Look what I found:

AndyC graciously allowed me to shoot his FAL one day.....

Heh, heh.... that was a good day.

Color coordination is always important. We are after an earth tones pallet here....... :biggrinjester

On the left, my home-built DMR AR15, topped with a 4x32 ACOG. On the right, my SCAR 17s, topped with a 4-16x50 Vortex Viper PST.

[Salty1]

Good score, I will be interested on your thoughts once you shoot it. Personally I really like mine although people next to you on the range, especially those with cheap hearing protection, will not be very impressed as all the noise seems to come out the sides from the muzzle brake. I went with a 3x30 ACOG as I found my scope to be a bit much for a "battle rifle", just wanted a very quick target acquisition and both eyes open optic which I cannot do with a scope.

The factory trigger will break in and become better, I am still torn as to if I will replace mine.

[The Marshal]

I think the stock trigger is ok. I can say that the upgraded trigger is spectacular.
I am very happy with this rifle, it would be.my only one if it came to that!