age_ranger wrote:I just looked into this and it's complicated. Basically, if the profit form the raffle goes to a charity or non-profit orginization, you probably won't get a second glance. However, if it's for personal profit, then those gaming laws will come into play. Several clubs have held raffles to raise money, but the money is put back into the club to run things. Doing a raffle on a forum is difficult since there would be participants from all over the US and since you'd be accepting entries and shipping to an out of state FFL (possibly) then federal laws would come into play.
I spoke to a very reliable and trusted source and the advice I got was "If you were my client and were asking me if you should do it, I'd tell you to stear clear of it"
(can't recall his exact and wise wording, but that's the basics of it)
I was hoping to do one for the Beretta Forum and it appears as if we're out of luck. Not sure what the possibility of doing it would be if NO profit was made, though. I'm not waiting in line to be the test case for it, though!
I don't know this for a fact, but I'd be willing to bet that *if* the feds were to take an interest, they would expect you to show that it was not-for-profit not on the basis that you didn't make any money off the raffle, but based on being registered per IRC 501(c)(3) as a tax-exempt organization.
I am heading this raffle up with LumberJack98 and the main concern I have is that when you fill out the FFL paperwork, one of the questions basically asks if you are buying the gun for someone else.... of course the appropriate answer is "No".... Either LumberJack or myself will be purchasing the gun.... if one of us fill out the paperwork, wouldnt we be blatantly lying if we answered "No" knowing that it is for a raffle??? or am I not fully grasping what the question is asking....
The reason we are avoiding buying the gun from a certain dealer and having the winner pick it up the next day is Our group is spread over hundreds of miles and the winner may not live close to the gun shop we choose.... We know every member that will be entering the raffle so the chance that they are a prohibited person is nearly zero....
Yep about as close to zero as one can get. Law enforcement, CHL holders, and not to mention to be part of the organization one has to own an XD pistol which would mean purchasing it somewhere.
How we conduct ourselves defines us. At the end of the day we answer to ourselves. At the end of our days we answer to God.
What if we hold a raffle for a gift certificate for the winner to go to a specific gun dealer to "purchase" the pistol and would then be required to fill out all of the appropriate paper work?
Here's what the BATFE website says in their FAQ about raffles:
(P60) An organization without a firearms license wishes to acquire a firearm from a licensee for the purpose of raffling the firearm at an event. How does the licensee comply with the Brady law? [Back]
The licensee must comply with the Brady law by conducting a NICS check on the transferee. If the licensee wishes to transfer the firearm to the organization, a representative of the organization must complete a Form 4473, and a NICS check must be conducted on that representative prior to the transfer of the firearm. Alternatively, if the licensee transfers the firearm directly to the winner of the raffle, the winner must complete a Form 4473, and a NICS check must be conducted on the raffle winner prior to the transfer.
Please note, if the organization’s practice of raffling firearms rises to the level of being engaged in the business of dealing in firearms, the organization must get its own Federal firearms license (and the examples below would not apply).
Example 1: A licensee transfers a firearm to the organization sponsoring the raffle. The licensee must comply with the Brady Law by requiring a representative of the organization to complete the Form 4473 and undergo a NICS check. As indicated in the instructions on the Form 4473, when the buyer of a firearm is a corporation, association, or other organization, an officer or other representative authorized to act on behalf of the organization must complete the form with his or her personal information and attach a written statement, executed under penalties of perjury, stating that the firearm is being acquired for the use of the organization and the name and ad-dress of the organization. Once the firearm had been transferred to the organization, the organization can subsequently transfer the firearm to the raffle winner without a Form 4473 being completed or a NICS check being conducted. This is because the organization is not an FFL. However, the organization cannot transfer the firearm to a person who is not a resident of the State where the raffle occurs and cannot knowingly transfer the firearm to a prohibited person.
Example 2: The licensee or his or her representative brings a firearm to the raffle so that the firearm can be displayed. After the raffle, the firearm is returned to the licensee’s premises. The licensee must complete a Form 4473 for the transaction and must comply with the Brady Law prior to transferring the firearm to the winner of the raffle. If the firearm is a handgun, the winner of the raffle must be a resident of the State where the transfer takes place, or the firearm must be transferred through another FFL in the winner’s State of residence. If the firearm is a rifle or shotgun, the FFL can lawfully transfer the firearm to the winner of the raffle as long as the transaction is over-the-counter and complies with the laws applicable at the place of sale and the State where the transferee resides.
Example 3: If the raffle meets the definition of an “event� at which the licensee is allowed to conduct business pursuant to 27 CFR 478.100, the licensee may attend the event and transfer the firearm at the event to the winner of the raffle. As in Example 2, the FFL must complete a Form 4473 and comply with the Brady law and the interstate controls in transferring the firearm.
Been through this from both sides in Texas: 1] Giving away a gun in a raffel with a VFD and winning 4 guns as "door prizes" at various events.
You go through a FFL retailer and you pay them for the gun. The winner has to complete the form and the gun is transfered directly to them. You (or the organization) never has title or possession of the weapon. Zero liability as far as I can tell.
Lumberjack98 wrote:What if we hold a raffle for a gift certificate for the winner to go to a specific gun dealer to "purchase" the pistol and would then be required to fill out all of the appropriate paper work?
I think that's an excellent idea.
The winner could buy what he wants -- maybe a scope or a load of ammo instead of a weapon. You would not have to worry about any kind of liability or paperwork.
I have to admit, I rarely buy tickets to the raffles that the NRA holds, where you can win multi-thousand-dollar weapons, because the taxes would kill me.
Apparently, from a federal standpoint, it's legit as long as the firearm is transferred via an FFL with proper background check. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem buying one and raffling it off since part of the raffle rules would be that the winner must provide a FFL for the transfer. That's a good way to cover the bases and ensure it's done legit......
This might actually be a possibility now but I think if I were to do one, I'd simply donate any profit to a charity or something in order to avoid any further hassle. ??
age_ranger wrote:Apparently, from a federal standpoint, it's legit as long as the firearm is transferred via an FFL with proper background check. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem buying one and raffling it off since part of the raffle rules would be that the winner must provide a FFL for the transfer.
No, that's not quite what the rules say. (Or at least the ATF rules; if you were talking about the rules you'd set for the raffle, that's different.)
You can raffle off a gun that you own. The problem with that is that few people would enter a drawing for a used gun (not counting valuable collectibles).
So, this "new" gun has to come from a dealer: either from dealer to raffle official to the raffle winner, or straight from the dealer to the raffle winner.
The latter is obviously the simplest way, and allows the gun to remain truly "new".
Ah, I see what you're saying......about the "new firearm". I was referring to the ruels that would be imposed on the raffle for transfer to a FFL. The topping on the cake would be to raffle off a pistol only to have some weirdo win it and want to do an FTF only to hear about how he used it to shoot someone later that evening...............
