Brother needs advice about near altercation...

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mymojo
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Re: Brother needs advice about near altercation...

Post by mymojo »

He coulda asked the cashier to call a manager over.
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Re: Brother needs advice about near altercation...

Post by DONT TREAD ON ME »

mgood wrote:Potentially bad situation.

You are not justified in even showing your weapon (a threat of deadly force) until you are justified in actually using deadly force. And nothing in this confrontation rose to that level as far as I can see.

And if the guy had started beating up your brother to the point that he did feel justified in using deadly force, there's a good chance that someone could claim your brother started the mess by provoking him and therefore might be charged with manslaughter or something. (Even though I think this is unlikely and I believe he was within his rights to politely ask the guy to give him a little space, drunks aren't known for being reasonable and it could all come down to what the cashier and/or other people in line saw and heard or think they saw and heard. More than likely they'd side with your brother over some belligerent drunk, but just one anti-gun witness who thinks CHLs are cowboys who wannabe cops could ruin his life.)

When carrying, I go even further out of my way to avoid confrontation than I do when I'm not carrying, to avoid the possibility of a situation like the one described.
XtremeDuty.45 wrote:NOTE: Only reason I would brandish my weapon is if the alpha male put his hands on me/my wife. If all he did was continue to talk I would ignore him, check out and go home.
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Re: Brother needs advice about near altercation...

Post by bdickens »

mgood wrote:....And if the guy had started beating up your brother to the point that he did feel justified in using deadly force, there's a good chance that someone could claim your brother started the mess by provoking him and therefore might be charged with manslaughter or something....

I call bull on that. Asking someone to get out of your personal space and asking someone to obey the rules of public decorum is not provocation. It really saddens me to see how society has degraded to the point that we allow rudeness, intimidation and even outright crime to pass without even a second thought. There was a day when that sort of thing was not tolerated.
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Re: Brother needs advice about near altercation...

Post by wrinkles »

Brandishing is against the law.
Also if a big guy was right in my face I would never show him my gun in the manner described, it's a good way to have it taken way from you.
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Re: Brother needs advice about near altercation...

Post by Abraham »

bdickens ,

I agree with you, but we don't live in the old west where justice could be served piping hot.

That said, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn said western society is a litigious society - and he's right.

The drunk was obnoxious, but hadn't started anything personal.

As a righteously annoyed person, carrying a gun, you have to be the bigger man when the world annoys/aggravates/displeases you or potentially face being sued if things go bang, when you could've walked away to begin with.

Is that an attractive option to one's ego?

No.

It's the smart one.
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Re: Brother needs advice about near altercation...

Post by karder »

Your brother did exactly the right thing. Back off and leave the situation. While I understand the frustration of dealing with a loud mouth drunken bully, you don't want to be involved in a shooting if you can at all avoid it. You can be 100% justified, but your going to get arrested or at least detained, you are going to spend hours talking to detectives, you are going to have to hire an attorney, at some point your case is going to be presented to a grand jury where, hopefully, it will be dropped. Then you get to deal with a civil lawsuit. Just the lawyer's bill should be reason enough to walk away! I would do what your brother did and walk away and leave the drunk talking. No need to have a bruised ego. The fool didn't know he was provoking a guy with a gun in his belt I assure you.
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Re: Brother needs advice about near altercation...

Post by Oldgringo »

karder wrote:Your brother did exactly the right thing. Back off and leave the situation. While I understand the frustration of dealing with a loud mouth drunken bully, you don't want to be involved in a shooting if you can at all avoid it. You can be 100% justified, but your going to get arrested or at least detained, you are going to spend hours talking to detectives, you are going to have to hire an attorney, at some point your case is going to be presented to a grand jury where, hopefully, it will be dropped. Then you get to deal with a civil lawsuit. Just the lawyer's bill should be reason enough to walk away! I would do what your brother did and walk away and leave the drunk talking. No need to have a bruised ego. The fool didn't know he was provoking a guy with a gun in his belt I assure you.
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Re: Brother needs advice about near altercation...

Post by USA1 »

Oldgringo wrote:
karder wrote:Your brother did exactly the right thing. Back off and leave the situation. While I understand the frustration of dealing with a loud mouth drunken bully, you don't want to be involved in a shooting if you can at all avoid it. You can be 100% justified, but your going to get arrested or at least detained, you are going to spend hours talking to detectives, you are going to have to hire an attorney, at some point your case is going to be presented to a grand jury where, hopefully, it will be dropped. Then you get to deal with a civil lawsuit. Just the lawyer's bill should be reason enough to walk away! I would do what your brother did and walk away and leave the drunk talking. No need to have a bruised ego. The fool didn't know he was provoking a guy with a gun in his belt I assure you.
CORRECT ANSWER! Give Karder a cigar.
:iagree:
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Purplehood
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Re: Brother needs advice about near altercation...

Post by Purplehood »

I would imagine that the OP's brother has never been to a foreign country where some cultures have no concept of "personal space". The guy is drunk = he is not thinking that he shouldn't be encroaching on anothers space. He is more likely trying to figure out where his own space is.
When you encounter a drunk, you tend to stay away from or report them. I personally would try to avoid any contests involving making designs in the sand with liquid-streams. This is a definite "forget you have a gun and use your own good judgement" situation.
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pdubyoo
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Re: Brother needs advice about near altercation...

Post by pdubyoo »

USA1 wrote:
Oldgringo wrote:
karder wrote:Your brother did exactly the right thing. Back off and leave the situation. While I understand the frustration of dealing with a loud mouth drunken bully, you don't want to be involved in a shooting if you can at all avoid it. You can be 100% justified, but your going to get arrested or at least detained, you are going to spend hours talking to detectives, you are going to have to hire an attorney, at some point your case is going to be presented to a grand jury where, hopefully, it will be dropped. Then you get to deal with a civil lawsuit. Just the lawyer's bill should be reason enough to walk away! I would do what your brother did and walk away and leave the drunk talking. No need to have a bruised ego. The fool didn't know he was provoking a guy with a gun in his belt I assure you.
CORRECT ANSWER! Give Karder a cigar.
:iagree:
Ditto :iagree:

A couple of years ago, before I applied for my CHL, I was in a similar situation with two males who were basically standing beside me in line. I gave one of them an annoyed look, and he pipes-off, "am I bothering you?". I said "yes, it appears that you two are in a hurry...why don't you go in front of me". The expression on the guys face looked like he was surprised at the answer. I stepped back, and they stepped-up in front of me. The other of the two gave me a fist bump and said thanks. :roll:
After they checked-out and walked away, the couple behind me said..."that could have gotten ugly really fast...thanks for letting them go ahead". I can't stand guys that use intimidation to get what they want, but I came away completely unharmed. The fact that your brother and his wife walked away unharmed and without an altercation means that they handled it the correct way IMHO.
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Re: Brother needs advice about near altercation...

Post by Aggie_engr »

Great posts guys, thanks for the responses! I will be directing him to this thread to absorb it's advice and maybe make a plan of what he will do in a similar situation in the future.

As for,
wrinkles wrote:Brandishing is against the law.
from the section of the penal code that I posted earlier, it seems to me that it is not against the law to legally present your handgun as a use of force to deter the threat of the use of deadly force or serious bodily injury.
PC s9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force
is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes
of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by
the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose
is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly
force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.
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Re: Brother needs advice about near altercation...

Post by garcia946 »

I think he did a good job , we are taught to de-escalate the situation. Using or firearm is a last resort , from what you said , there was no physical altercation.I would have done the same
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Re: Brother needs advice about near altercation...

Post by Aggie_engr »

frazzled wrote:One party buying engineering calcs vs. BG buying beer means your brother has already won. BG wins the game of macho. Your Brother wins the game of life.
:iagree: Awesome stuff right there. Amen to that. Thanks again guys!
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Re: Brother needs advice about near altercation...

Post by seamusTX »

Aggie_engr wrote:from the section of the penal code that I posted earlier, it seems to me that it is not against the law to legally present your handgun as a use of force to deter the threat of the use of deadly force or serious bodily injury.
You can legally display your handgun when the use of deadly force is justified.

You cannot display it in response to rudeness or even verbal threats to kick your butt.

The McDermott case set a precedent that a CHL holder displaying a handgun when he is not justified in using deadly force is intentional failure to conceal (PC 46.035).

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... 7&p=310326" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know of a case where a guy was charged on this basis in Kemah. He was one of ElGato's students.

PC 9,04 does not protect CHL holders who are not on their own premises.

It does protect you if, for example, you take your shotgun to check out noises in the night or to confront trespassers.

There is no offense called "brandishing" in Texas. Many other states have such an offense, and it would be illegal to have a weapon visible in those situations.

It annoys me that we can't do anything about these jerks without getting in legal trouble (I'm thinking what Uncle Hub did to the punks in the cafe in "Secondhand Lions"), but sooner or later they are going to run into a plainclothes cop or a thug who doesn't mind sticking a knife in them.

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Re: Brother needs advice about near altercation...

Post by dewayneward »

You can legally display your handgun when the use of deadly force is justified.

You cannot display it in response to rudeness or even verbal threats to kick your butt.

Code: Select all

PC s9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force
is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes
of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by
the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose
is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly
force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.
The way that I am understanding it "threats to kick your butt" equal "a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury". what am I missing here?

I carry at 8 oclock (I'm a lefty) so I would be "brandishing" to someone, however, if someone where to start threatening me or sometihng (and this would include what the OP described), I dont see the problem with stepping back, putting one hand up, and putting my hand (exposing the gun essentially) on my gun at the same time trying to convince the person that he/she really doesnt want to do this.

When I read a number of the responses, its like you wait until the person hits you before you would pull your gun.

I had a friend of mine (CHL) who pulled over with a bunch of kids who were swerving to hit him, etc. (the kids essentially forced him to pull over). They get out of their cars saying they are going to kick his but. my friend put his hand up, put his hand on his gun(thereby brandishing) and asked the guy if he was sure that he wanted to kick his butt. After a few moments, the kids got back into their car and left.

From what I am understanding here, he would be guilty????
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