Brother needs advice about near altercation...

[Aggie_engr]

My brother and I have already discussed what could have been a near disaster for him and came up with some solutions. Here is a layout of what transpired:

My brother and his significant other were at a Wally in the west houston area (westhiemer and dunvale) at 11p.m. this past saturday (going late was first mistake) to buy FE approved calculators for their FE (fundamentals of engineering) exam. The entire time that they are waiting in line, there was an african american male of slightly larger build than him talking very loudly on his cell phone right behind them, from what my brother describes as too close and right in his ear. So he turns around and says "excuse me but could you back off please," to which the male replies "what, what you saying?" He said this guy had already been drinkning, as he could smell it on his breath and by the way he was acting, AND the only item he had to purchase was another 12 pack. Well, it's now my brother's turn to put his things on the counter and the male behind him ends his phone conversation, never stepping back or moving to give my brother some space, throws his 12 pack up on the counter and says to him "so what were you saying to me? You still got something to say?" and began getting confrontational. My brother then told him nothing man, forget about it because he was carrying and didn't want to escalate the situation any further, to which the male, now in his face says "that's what I thought."

My brother was asking me about what consitutes the use of deadly force, say if someone begins threatening to beat your you know what and begins advancing on you? I told him I thought that verbal provocation alone does not justify the use of deadly force, to which he acknowledges and says well what about just presenting my weapon to stop said person from carrying out that threat? So, here I am attempting to pick the minds of the wise ones from this board. We did agree that the best thing to do in that situation is to not say anything and just go to another checkout line. What stinks is that someone should not have the ability to make you feel so uncomfortable that you have to go somewhere else just to avoid a confrontation/possible shooting that would totally not be worth it. He was still ticked off today but he managed his anger in the heat of the moment and I think did the right thing by de-escalating the situation... Any takers? Sorry for the long read and thank you for your time.

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

I think he handled it just fine. Nothing transpired. Alpha male got to feel big and bad and your brother and his significant other got to go home.

Had the alpha male kept on the issue and tried to provoke me any further i.e. pushing/putting his hands on me and or my wife in any threating way or advancing in any threatening way I would have stepped in front of my wife and pulled my shirt/jacket up and showed him my weapon while getting a good grip on it, all the while leaving it holstered. I would tell him to back off and to go to another line away from us. Hopefully, he would leave and all would be ok. At this point I would continue to check out and then proceed to call the police to inform them that I was accosted and that I brandished my weapon to de-escalate the situation. I would tell them that I will stay there and wait for them to arrive so that they can get the proper report. I would call immediately so that the alpha male does not have the chance to call and say some punk pulled a gun on him and now I am the bad guy.

If he decided at the point I brandished my gun that he was going to beat my you know what I would have stopped him. Reason being he already showed intent to harm me and my wife. My wife is a very small woman and I will protect her at all cost. One good punch from a man could do serious harm to her. Thats something I will not risk.

NOTE: Only reason I would brandish my weapon is if the alpha male put his hands on me/my wife. If all he did was continue to talk I would ignore him, check out and go home.

Please feel free to inform me of good points and bad points of my idea.

[Aggie_engr]

Thanks for the reply XtremeDuty. I think you made some very good points and is actually something that I mentioned to him about how I would handle it, in that I wouldn't present my firearm in any fashion until he makes contact. But would my brother asking him to give him some space be provocation? Also, what is the law regarding the use of pepper spray? Since the guy got in his face, could he have hosed him down? I definately think he would get big eyed and scram after seeing that someone is armed and prepared to defend themselves. I also told him that if something were to go down in that situation to keep an eye on the person checking out your items so they don't run off as they should be a valuable witness and able to second your story.

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

IMO your brother asking him to back off/up is not provocation then again I am not a LEO nor a Prosecuting Attorney. It was a simple request. He did not threaten him. He simply asked him to respect his personal space.

As far as pepper spray goes I am not sure. I know it has been discussed here before.

[mgood]

Potentially bad situation.

You are not justified in even showing your weapon (a threat of deadly force) until you are justified in actually using deadly force. And nothing in this confrontation rose to that level as far as I can see.

And if the guy had started beating up your brother to the point that he did feel justified in using deadly force, there's a good chance that someone could claim your brother started the mess by provoking him and therefore might be charged with manslaughter or something. (Even though I think this is unlikely and I believe he was within his rights to politely ask the guy to give him a little space, drunks aren't known for being reasonable and it could all come down to what the cashier and/or other people in line saw and heard or think they saw and heard. More than likely they'd side with your brother over some belligerent drunk, but just one anti-gun witness who thinks CHLs are cowboys who wannabe cops could ruin his life.)

When carrying, I go even further out of my way to avoid confrontation than I do when I'm not carrying, to avoid the possibility of a situation like the one described.

[Aggie_engr]

Exactly what I told him mgood! Now that you have your chl, your not just carrying a firearm with you, but also a big responsibility, and with that responsibility your just going to have to start sucking it up and take it and learn how to ignore the petty things that used to bother you.

[Aggie_engr]

Scanning the relevant codes, I found that:

PC s9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force
is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes
of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by
the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose
is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly
force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

and,

(b) The use of force against another is not justified:
(I) in response to verbal provocation alone; .....

(4) if the actor provoked the other's use or attempted use of
unlawful force, unless:
(A) the actor abandons the encounter, or clearly communicates
to the other his intent to do so reasonably believing he cannot safely
abandon the encounter; and
(B) the other nevertheless continues or attempts to use
unlawful force against the actor;

[LittleGun]

Carrying is a big responsibility. I think that to carry is to abide by a higher standard of behavior. The CHL holder should take the initiative to de-escalate situations so that it doesn't lead to a life-threatening event. If you can diffuse the situation with soft words, that is the better choice.

[chabouk]

Carrying a gun requires checking your ego. Your brother did fine in his actions. It's understandable that he feels bruised; he was bruised. But he didn't lose this confrontation. He won: nobody got hurt, nobody got shot, everyone went home, no police were involved.

One thing he might have done, is whisper to the clerk or CSR: "You do know it's illegal to sell alcohol to someone who is already intoxicated, right?"

(FYI, I know it's illegal to serve someone a drink when they're intoxicated, but I don't know if the same applies for selling package goods to go. But it's a nice bluff. ;) )

Have you heard any Roy D. Mercer recordings, the prank phone calls from a radio host in Tulsa, where he always threatens that "somebody's gonna get a *** whoopin'!"? One one of his pranks, he was threatening an office supply store manager for selling glue that got his son high: "Just how big a boy are ya, anyway?" The reply: "Oh, I'm not very big. I'm sure you could beat me up."

When the joke was revealed, the radio guy asked the manager, "Really, how big a guy are you?" "Oh, I'm about 6-2 and 235."



That was a perfect case of the one with the physical advantage trying to defuse and de-escalate to avoid having to use his advantage. Doesn't matter if it's muscles or magnum: keep it holstered if you can.

[KD5NRH]

One thing I would have added would be discreetly hanging around the parking lot, and if the guy gets in a car, call it in as a DUI. Then again, I'm both vindictive and strongly opposed to drunks endangering lives on the roads I drive.

[The Annoyed Man]

One thing I would have added would be discreetly hanging around the parking lot, and if the guy gets in a car, call it in as a DUI. Then again, I'm both vindictive and strongly opposed to drunks endangering lives on the roads I drive.

Oh yes you are... ...and I like it! That's not a bad idea, as long as you can do it without escalating the previous confrontation.

[Oldgringo]

I agree that the first mistake, as you noted, was going to this, or any, Wal-Mart in any urban area that late at night.

There was a thread on here recently about potentially dangerous places to avoid, etc., etc. IMO, the timing of this outing is a qualifier for this Wal-Mart being one of those places.

I second the motion about reporting a DUI, BTW.

[Abraham]

I would suggest as soon as he noticed the obnoxious drunk behind him, it would've been advisable to calmly get out of line, maybe shop a bit more and enter a different line.

Is this being intimidated?

No.

It's being smart.

That he was justified in saying what he said to the drunk, in my estimation, was still provocative. He essentially challenged a drunk.

Sometimes, in certain situations, the smart thing is to walk away...

[dsim]

If you are really feeling threatened, one thing my instructor told us when dealing with that kind of confrontation was to attract as much attention to yourself and the perp BEFORE you have to draw your weapon. Dont get all crazy but what he demonstrated to us is to raise your voice and say something like, "Sir, please get back! You are invading my personal space and I do not appreciate it!" taking a few steps back at the same time. If the BG still keeps approaching at that point then repeat said statement until you feel that you are in immediate danger, then handle the situation appropriately.

His reasoning was that when you draw attention you get more eyes on you which equals more witnesses of you attempting to diffuse the situation in a non violent manner. That and his thinking is that when BG's get more eyes on them there is a good chance that they will back down instead of using physical violence. Should they choose to then it all goes back to witnesses observing your conduct as well as his.

[frazzled]

Also remind your brother.

One party buying engineering calcs vs. BG buying beer means your brother has already won. BG wins the game of macho. Your Brother wins the game of life.