Beiruty wrote:I am not justifying anything. The shooting looks like an over reaction due to extreme fear and panic.
I'm sure you weren't.
One thing the Oldgringo got out of this video was to let the LEO retrieve the Oldgringo's cane from the Oldgringo's truck...lest the Oldgringo get blasted into Smithereens, which is the next county over.
philip964 wrote:Don't know where I heard this, but afterwards the officer was crying.
officer was crying... also telling the person that he was sorry.... also there was another officer telling him he did what he had to do...
I can understand why the officer did shoot.. pulling it out it could look like a long gun... I couldn't understand why the guy would keep it in the back of his truck... I walk with a cane and stow it between the door and seat and its within easy reach when i get out of the door.. most times i grab it and before i get out. .
"Freedom itself was attacked this morning by a faceless coward. Freedom will be defended!"
-President George W. Bush, September 11, 2001
Beiruty wrote:I am not justifying anything. The shooting looks like an over reaction due to extreme fear and panic.
ding...ding...ding! While most folks on this forum know that the safest thing to do is sit with your hands on the wheel and the interior light on to alleviate the officer's apprehension, that doesn't mean that just because someone steps out of the vehicle, that the officer should ASSUME the person means them harm and be in fear of their life. He didn't "do what he had to do", as the other officer kept telling him...he overreacted and started shooting before he ever yelled at the man to "drop the gun". Officers are supposed to be trained to assess risk, and it may very well be the training vids that JTS was referring too are part of the problem. The officer immediately assumed it was a gun...without considering how unlikely it would be for someone to have been driving along with a rifle laying loose in the bed of a truck. Similar type of reaction a few months back, when two officers unloaded 13 shots at a man they surprised as he was bent over, leaning inside his own car, in his own driveway, looking for cigarettes when they yelled at him to "get out of the car with his hands up"...which he did while turning to face them with the car keys in his hand. He was also lucky that the officers missed with 12 of the shots, although they hit the car, the house, and the garage door of a neighbor's house.
"I looked out under the sun and saw that the race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong" Ecclesiastes 9:11
"The race may not always go to the swift or the battle to the strong, but that's the way the smart money bets" Damon Runyon
I feel bad for everyone involved in this one. If the cop had the training video previously mentioned pounded into his head his brain very well may have seen a rifle. This is something investigators will need to look at and adjust accordingly.
I think this also shows a need for better public education about interaction with police officers during a stop.
It wouldn't surprise me, given the LEOs post shooting reaction, if it was a long time (if ever) before the LEO goes back into the field. I see PTSD written all over this one.
Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.
John Wayne
NRA Lifetime member
It wasn't all that many years ago when it was said that officers preferred for you to get out of your vehicle so that they could see you and if you were armed. It's possible that the old guy still believed that was the proper thing to do. It's also possible that the old guy did not understand what the cop was trying to tell him to do since there was a lot of noise from traffic plus our hearing decreases as we age. Besides, the officer was yelling in a high pitched voice and that happens to be the frequencies that we lose first (i.e. we go deaf to the sound of our wife's voice). From what I gathered, he pulled the old guy over for expired license tags. Now, the old guy was from NC and the cop was from SC, so what was the SC cop doing enforcing the NC laws? Personally, I've never seen a cop bother to check to see if an out-of-state registration or inspection sticker was up to date. I've worked out of state for extended periods of time over the years and sometimes my vehicle is out of state for long enough that the registration or inspection stickers expire, but I've never been pulled over for them.
I've exited my truck with a cane in my hand before. I guess I should feel lucky that I was not shot on sight.
NavyVet1959 wrote:It wasn't all that many years ago when it was said that officers preferred for you to get out of your vehicle so that they could see you and if you were armed. It's possible that the old guy still believed that was the proper thing to do. It's also possible that the old guy did not understand what the cop was trying to tell him to do since there was a lot of noise from traffic plus our hearing decreases as we age. Besides, the officer was yelling in a high pitched voice and that happens to be the frequencies that we lose first (i.e. we go deaf to the sound of our wife's voice). From what I gathered, he pulled the old guy over for expired license tags. Now, the old guy was from NC and the cop was from SC, so what was the SC cop doing enforcing the NC laws? Personally, I've never seen a cop bother to check to see if an out-of-state registration or inspection sticker was up to date. I've worked out of state for extended periods of time over the years and sometimes my vehicle is out of state for long enough that the registration or inspection stickers expire, but I've never been pulled over for them.
I've exited my truck with a cane in my hand before. I guess I should feel lucky that I was not shot on sight.
Lots of drugs come up the coast from florida and I bet quite a bit are found thru stops like the expired reg. As to the cane comment looking at the vid and even knowing ahead of time that it was a cane it is hard not to see how the cop thought it was a gun for a split second. Getting out of a car with a cane wouldn't do it, pulling it out of a bed of a truck and "muzzle sweeping" a cop is a bit different.
Kind of funny tho. The guy who got shot was pretty calm and was saying that he was OK while the cop was breaking down over it.
Part of Citizens Academy, on the second week, we watched raw video of traffic stops. The first is The murder of Officer Mark Coates (early 90?). It was a simple traffic stop and the officer was letting the driver go on a warning, the big guy was out and between the 2 cars. The big guy was conducting himself in the most respectful way he can be. When the officer asked to open the trunk to search it, this is when all went the wrong way. The officer asked the guy to remove his left hand from his pocket and this is when the BG pulled a 22 5-shot deringer and shot the officer (1 rd through the left arm through the heart). The officer was on the ground and the BG on top. The officer managed to pull the his service weapon and shoot the BG with 5-6 center mass hits with hollow points.
The trooper died, the BG survived and is serving a life sentence till dates.
After watching the video the chief believes the officer "did the right thing"?
So if I get out of my car with my cane the officer would be doing the right thing if he shot me? I am too angry for words right now. I will comment later.
God Bless America, and please hurry. When I was young I knew all the answers. When I got older I started to realize I just hadn’t quite understood the questions.-Me
VoiceofReason wrote:After watching the video the chief believes the officer "did the right thing"?
So if I get out of my car with my cane the officer would be doing the right thing if he shot me? I am too angry for words right now. I will comment later.
Justifying Injustice.
Some LEO's develop the mentality that all Citizens are bad until proven good. Some Citizens develop the mentality that the State is out of control and that all LEO's are bad. This creates a "red herring" for a Society that used to be extremely free to go about its business without any worries about being shot by the State. How can the State "legalize" the "illegal" action of shooting innocent Americans, that is by nature going to happen, when one is trained that all Citizens should be viewed as threats?
The second officer on the scene has the State's answer. "You did what you had to do bro, don't worry about it". The State justifying the illegal action of violently attacking an American Citizen for something that really wasn't there and didn't really happen. The shooting LEO involved here may never forget this one and the second LEO on the scene may never care. This one thinks he's "justified" and it's no big deal... I bet the Chief wouldn't agree if he was the Citizen getting attacked.
NavyVet1959 wrote:It wasn't all that many years ago when it was said that officers preferred for you to get out of your vehicle so that they could see you and if you were armed. It's possible that the old guy still believed that was the proper thing to do. It's also possible that the old guy did not understand what the cop was trying to tell him to do since there was a lot of noise from traffic plus our hearing decreases as we age. Besides, the officer was yelling in a high pitched voice and that happens to be the frequencies that we lose first (i.e. we go deaf to the sound of our wife's voice). From what I gathered, he pulled the old guy over for expired license tags. Now, the old guy was from NC and the cop was from SC, so what was the SC cop doing enforcing the NC laws? Personally, I've never seen a cop bother to check to see if an out-of-state registration or inspection sticker was up to date. I've worked out of state for extended periods of time over the years and sometimes my vehicle is out of state for long enough that the registration or inspection stickers expire, but I've never been pulled over for them.
I've exited my truck with a cane in my hand before. I guess I should feel lucky that I was not shot on sight.
, on all points; especially, the old practice of meeting the LEO between the vehicles. I reckon that was true for the 'goodle days' when there was clean TV and before everybody start shooting everybody.
VoiceofReason wrote:After watching the video the chief believes the officer "did the right thing"?
So if I get out of my car with my cane the officer would be doing the right thing if he shot me? I am too angry for words right now. I will comment later.
The second officer on the scene has the State's answer. "You did what you had to do bro, don't worry about it". The State justifying the illegal action of violently attacking an American Citizen for something that really wasn't there and didn't really happen.
That "you did what you had to do bro, don't worry about it." statement was what really got to me. It was painfully obvious that the officer that shot him was mortified at what he had done, and will likely be dealing with it the rest of his life, but if it had been my family member that was shot, and I heard that second officer saying "don't worry about it bro", there's a good chance I'd have been arrested for aggravated assault.
"I looked out under the sun and saw that the race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong" Ecclesiastes 9:11
"The race may not always go to the swift or the battle to the strong, but that's the way the smart money bets" Damon Runyon
VoiceofReason wrote:After watching the video the chief believes the officer "did the right thing"?
So if I get out of my car with my cane the officer would be doing the right thing if he shot me? I am too angry for words right now. I will comment later.
Justifying Injustice.
Some LEO's develop the mentality that all Citizens are bad until proven good. Some Citizens develop the mentality that the State is out of control and that all LEO's are bad. This creates a "red herring" for a Society that used to be extremely free to go about its business without any worries about being shot by the State. How can the State "legalize" the "illegal" action of shooting innocent Americans, that is by nature going to happen, when one is trained that all Citizens should be viewed as threats?
The second officer on the scene has the State's answer. "You did what you had to do bro, don't worry about it". The State justifying the illegal action of violently attacking an American Citizen for something that really wasn't there and didn't really happen. The shooting LEO involved here may never forget this one and the second LEO on the scene may never care. This one thinks he's "justified" and it's no big deal... I bet the Chief wouldn't agree if he was the Citizen getting attacked.
Having actually been a shooter in a OIS; worked many others and responded to many more as a peer counselor for leos I have a little bit of experience in this area. I wouldn't take what he said to mean anything more then he said. It is hard to talk to somebody that has just had to use deadly force and even harder knowing no weapon was involved. There are rules about what you can and cannot say and it's awkward. The LEO isn't going to say dude you just screwed up. They will do the normal lengthy investigation and you really don't want to send the shooter into a heart attack since you really do want to interview him and find out his state of mind. We talk about that in all the shootings on here both leo and chl. State of mind is a big thing.
In watching the video you can see why he thought he was in fear for his life, but w/o being in HIS shoes, having HIS training and experience, in that moment one cannot say what they would or would not do. One may think they can but I disagree. I too have seen those videos and I have had people do some really stupid stuff during traffic stops to include pulling guns, bats, knives ect on me so one never knows what will happen during a simple stop. Older people also pull weapons on cops just like the younger ones so age cannot be ruled in or out. Unfortunately this person failed to comply, kept getting out of his car and then reached for the long object that turned out to be a cane. in hind site, he probably couldn't hear the officer, but the officer didn't know what he was doing and when he saw the long object pointed the officer thought it was a shot gun. In a police article the leo was already past his car door and had no cover when this occurred. He was moving and shooting which probably and thankfully resulted in missing the target.
Am I wrong in assuming stories like this are more common than in times gone by or are they just reported more often...?
Should Law Enforcement traffic stop driver/behavior etiquette be taught before getting a drivers license?
Should, perhaps 'annual / continued drivers etiquette education' be mandated for everyone with a drivers license along the lines of: If stopped by an LEO while driving - Once stopped, DO NOT attempt to grab your cane or anything else, put both hands on the wheel / remain motionless / don't speak until spoken to, remain calm and polite. Once given the O.K. to produce D.L. and proof of insurance, do so slowly and deliberately.
If you follow this procedure, you'll probably survive the encounter.
, on all points; especially, the old practice of meeting the LEO between the vehicles. I reckon that was true for the 'goodle days' when there was clean TV and before everybody start shooting everybody.
