VMI77 wrote:Skydivesnake wrote:Very interesting discussion.
As a Brit who went from neutral/slightly-anti to very strongly pro-armed-self-defense after I had moved to the US and investigated the various issues of firearms and their use - ethically, legally and mechanically - I would say that (in addition to the very well written comments thus far regarding the liberal-leaning attitudes to firearms and self-defense) there is also ALOT of misunderstanding outside of the gun-owning community regarding the actual firearm 'machine' itself.
People that are wholly unfamiliar with firearms have most (if not all) of their foundation of beliefs about firearms gleaned from TV and movies; guns are sensitive, complex devices full of explosives that go off at any time (and always when knocked/dropped), are invariably all full-auto, are so inaccurate/difficult to control that they shoot uncontrollably like an unheld garden hose, and that live rounds are as delicate as nitroglycerine and explode when tapped or warmed in the sun. Firearms take a massive amount of training to use, and a person is completely incapable if they are not ex-SWAT or SEAL with 25 years of service. The thing here is that if these things were true (and in my experience, alot of people from outside the US think they are true), then you could see why someone would be so adverse to the idea of an armed citizen.
My family were incredulous that I would carry a firearm at all, much less with a magazine inserted and then - good grief you maniac - a round chambered ('...it's like carrying around a sweating stick of dynamite in your back pocket...') in an IWB ('...that's going to make a mess of your leg when it goes off...') in a gun with no manual safety ('...what stops it from going off when you accidentally pull the trigger ?...'). Once I had actually set them straight on these kinds of misconceptions such that they understood a little more about the actual mechanics of the firearm, it was then quite an easy discussion regarding the benefits of armed self-defense.
So that is certainally something I bear in mind when talking with antis - it is quite likely that they have not the slightest notion of the mechanics of the firearm and if they really think it is like carrying around a sweating stick of dynamite, or a hand grenade waiting to explode, it's difficult to actually get to a point when the logic of armed self defense can be discussed...
...just my 2 pence worth :-)
How long have you been in the US? My impression of the UK is that the culture has become not just anti-gun, but anti-self-defense --to the point of empowering and emboldening all manner of criminal and thuggish behavior. Anthony Burgess was already writing about this attitude decades ago and I see it expressed in recent British television programs, like Peep Show (which also expresses that ignorance and mistrust of guns, and is unable to make the connection between one thing and the other).
I've been here several joyful years
You are correct regarding the anti-self-defense attitude; it's state-mandated pacifism encouraged through ludicrous zero-tolerance policies where homeowners are just as likely prosecuted for physically defending themselves, than the intruder is for breaking in, and old ladies carrying knitting needles just as likely to be busted for 'carrying an offensive weapon' as a gangbanger with a flick-knife.
An example is this ex-soldier who found an abandoned firearm, turned it in at the local police station - and was promptly arrested and prosecuted for gun possession;
http://www.thisissurreytoday.co.uk/news ... ticle.html
(The Judge's comment "The intention of anybody possessing a firearm is irrelevant" pretty much sums up the lack of significance that is placed on actual 'intent' in all areas of English law, these days)
This general fear of prosecution and creeping pacifism has soaked into the UK culture to such an extent that there seems to genuinely be no expectation that someone would attempt to defend themselves or others (even the family). And those that do are generally derided as either foolhardy or having a barely-suppressed, easily triggered, proclivity towards violence themselves.
...which brings me to a final point; those that have absolutely no urge to defend themselves or their loved ones, really cannot acknowledge - at all - that there may be others that do. So instead of being a law-abiding realist who has merely chosen the best tool for the job, you're actually a blood-thirsty gun owner just looking for the opportunity to shoot someone and hide behind the law to 'get away with it'.
