How to stop 2 Muggers

[Paladin]

Got this over at ar15.com

It's a scene from the movie Collateral (it's about 5 megs):

http://www.the-roberts.info/gallery/alb ... ateral.mpg

[GlockenHammer]

I liked this scene and studied it for a while. Here are some of my thoughts and observations.

Sequence analysis:
1. Obviously avoid this situation.
2. Disarming, possibly a choice when one-on-one wasn't really an option with a second BG handy.
3. BG gun controlled first, swept with weak hand, pushing gun hand so good guy is on "outside" with gun hand free to draw.
4. Nice form firing from retention--two COM.
5. Transition to BG #2 before BG #1 even hits the ground. Note good stance achieved without delay and two-handed grip allows quick and accurate dispatching. (Note BG #2 going for gun and represents a threat).
6. Head shot on BG #2 reflexively even as he's going down.
Not shown: recheck BG1 immediately, check other BG in vacinity (including six), recharge weapon.
7. One story (not appropriate to finish off BG #1, but worked nicely in the film).

Other points:
A. Requires contact distance to be able to control BG1 weapon--very difficult to outdraw an already drawn weapon (CHL-er in Dallas(?) killed within last year trying to outdraw a BG gun).
B. Minus one point for not moving left after the sweep. That puts distance between GG and BG1 muzzle, resets BG1 OODA loop with new target position, puts distance from BG2, possibly obscures BG2 view causing BG2 more time to clue in to what's happening, possibly usess BG1 as shield if BG2 is quicker to gun.

My approach: Let them have my stuff since they were not threatening me until challenged.[/u]

[GlockenHammer]

Forgot to mention what may have been the biggest keys to success.

1. BGs thought they had helpless victim. GG didn't display bravado or power in 'discussion' (didn't represent any threat to BG or tip them off he know how to handle himself).
2. GG action was swift (unexpected), violent and complete. No second chances given.

[Lindy]

It's a pretty good sequence. For a citizen, of course, you would just let the guys walk off with the property. This is a movie, and any resemblance to real life is coincidental.

A couple of things I noticed. In the surrender position, Cruise doesn't raise his right hand much above shoulder level. Very good.

He sweeps BG1's gun to Cruise's right, which means he has to bring his left hand in front of his own body. That increases the danger to his left arm/hand from his own gun. Sweeping it to the outside or vertically might have been a better choice.

Also, Cruise sweeps the jacket back too far - it is necessary only to come back as far as he needs to in order to grip his pistol. And I'd have fired both sets of shots from the retention position, in order to eliminate the chance that the second guy would move in close enough to deflect the pistol.

But it's a movie, not a training film.

[Deaf Smith]

Every situation will be different. BGs might be stupid, might be smart, They might be slow or fast or doped up or quite sober. The GG might be a 20 yr old fit tall man or a 50 year old short overweight one with high blood pressure. Some might have H2H experience, some zero. It could be a slippery floor or an stairway or driveway or .... well you get the point.

One cannot make specific "how to's". The best a training program can do is give each user tools to can work under a wide range of conditions then hope the student trains enough to become proficient (and KEEP proficient) and be able to judge what will work under whatever the situation becomes. Tools, Technique, Tactics, and Strategy.

But as they say, "Your training gives you an edge, but luck welds the sword".

[Paladin]

Some really good comments.

In addition I noticed that Tom Cruise managed to sweep himself with his muzzle when he reholstered.

I got the DVD of the movie over the holidays and got some more info from it.

In the movie Tom Cruise is a BG himself, is unconcerned with legality, and really needs the briefcase.

Apparently a former SAS soldier (Mick Gould?) did the training for the actors in the movie.

The director is quoted as saying Tom Cruise drew and fired (at both BGs?) in 1.3 seconds.

[KBCraig]

The director is quoted as saying Tom Cruise drew and fired (at both BGs?) in 1.3 seconds.

While I didn't whip out a stopwatch, my Fort Benning clock says (beginning with sweeping the BG's weapon: "ONE thousand TWO thousand THREE thousand..." ... and, BG2 is down (five shots total).

I have never seen the movie. It's not my style. But the sequence does show excellent form for someone who has practiced extensively for just such a scenario. I do have to point out that shot #6 (the last shot against BG1) exceeds the standard for "excessive force": when the entrance wound, exit wound, and hole in the floor all line up.

But I understand that Cruise was a BG himself, and unconcerned with such niceties.

Kevin

[HighVelocity]

The best part about the whole clip is the first line...

Yo Homie, is that my briefcase?

[dolanp]

He sweeps BG1's gun to Cruise's right, which means he has to bring his left hand in front of his own body. That increases the danger to his left arm/hand from his own gun. Sweeping it to the outside or vertically might have been a better choice.

I wonder about this, because if he had swept the BG1's arm to the outside the BG would be stepped into his body and have the full force of his left arm to strike Cruise's character or block his draw. By sweeping the arm to the inside he forces the BG to a position where his other arm is useless for continuing offense. There is the risk of shooting your own arm I guess but if you're *that* trained then it's probably safe enough. :)

[gigag04]

He sweeps BG1's gun to Cruise's right, which means he has to bring his left hand in front of his own body. That increases the danger to his left arm/hand from his own gun. Sweeping it to the outside or vertically might have been a better choice.

I wonder about this, because if he had swept the BG1's arm to the outside the BG would be stepped into his body and have the full force of his left arm to strike Cruise's character or block his draw. By sweeping the arm to the inside he forces the BG to a position where his other arm is useless for continuing offense. There is the risk of shooting your own arm I guess but if you're *that* trained then it's probably safe enough. :)

Also, by sweeping the arm as he did in the vid clip, he keeps his upper body in sync. His whole torso rotates to his right, left hand swatting the weapon to the right, and right hand going back and right for the grap. This makes it one smooth motion as opposed to different appendages going different directions.

I guess in my mind, if I were to strike the gun to the right, it would leaves more "play" for my right hand to get a solid quick grab, as well as get some decent shots from the hip, before two-handing it for neutralizing BG2.

-nick

[tacticool]

Apparently a former SAS soldier (Mick Gould?) did the training for the actors in the movie.

The videos of the training for Collateral and Heat are very interesting. Some of it's on youtube.

[ScottDLS]

It's a pretty good sequence. For a citizen, of course, you would just let the guys walk off with the property. This is a movie, and any resemblance to real life is coincidental.
...

For a resident alien however, you would drill both the mopes with a head shot.

[WildBill]

Apparently a former SAS soldier (Mick Gould?) did the training for the actors in the movie.

The videos of the training for Collateral and Heat are very interesting. Some of it's on youtube.

Some of the videos showed that he trained for about 3 months on the set and at the LAPD range. Too bad we can't get the same kind of treatment.

[Katygunnut]

It's a pretty good sequence. For a citizen, of course, you would just let the guys walk off with the property. This is a movie, and any resemblance to real life is coincidental.
...

For a resident alien however, you would drill both the mopes with a head shot.

I believe he is referring to the fact that US citizens have become fully conditioned to giving up all of our money and possessions upon demand. The Federal government has trained us well in that regard through taxation, etc.

[sugar land dave]

The link is dead from my location.....