The mouse that roared

[solaritx]

There are some of us here in the houston area that are looking into having a Mouse Gun/BUG match sometime after the holidays. We are working on the rules and looking into dates. Here is what I have come up with so far. (we even give you a chance to reshoot 2 scenarios after you mess up.....but it will cost you <g>

I am looking for the following things.
1) is there any interest in this type of match?
2) after looking at the following, do you have any suggestions to make it better.




Mouse gun match

Cost: match fee will be range fee plus $10.00.

Shooter may enter additional divisions for a fee of $5.00 per extra division. (number of additional divisions might be limited by MD depending on number of shooters)

At shooter’s discretion, shooter may re-shoot up to 2 SEPARATE CoF per division entered for a “bribe� of $3.00 per re-shoot.

Divisions:
1) Mouse gun (.22 or larger)
(Example but not limited to) Kel-Tec .32 or .380, Seecamp, etc
2) J-frame revolver (any 5 shot revolvers)
3) Alternative revolver (any 6 shot or more revolvers)
4) BUG
Example: Glock 26, 27, 30, 1911 Officer, etc.
5) Other (full size weapons)

Targets: IDPA standard target. Non-threats will be similar to IDPA. All targets will be engaged per CoF. All threats must be engaged either while moving or utilizing cover (if available) or per CoF discription. Each CoF can utilize 1-10 threats and unlimited number of Non-Threats. If steel is utilized, it will be scored as per paper with one hit on steel to neutralize, and steel need not be activated. Hard cover will be as utilized in IDPA.

Scoring: Targets are scored either as neutralized or Failed to Neutralize. One scored hit in EITHER “0� down neutralizes target. Two scored hits in “1� down neutralizes target. Grease ring that touches the perforations on target are scored to the better score.

FTN=10 second penalty
Hit on Non-threat=20 second penalty.

Raw time + any FTN and/or Hit on Non-threat = score for CoF

(note: shooter MAY re-shoot two (2) separate CoF at the shooter’s discretion with a payment of $3.00 for each reshoot. Shooter must declare a request for a reshoot immediately after the shooter’s time/score is documented. The SO or Scorekeeper will then fit the shooter into the squad ASAP. After re-shoot, the shooter’s score will be the one that most benefits the shooter.)

Gun handling: The match will be run as a COLD RANGE. Start position will be either from Low Ready or shooter will pick up weapon as directed by CoF. At the end of the CoF, and after Showing Clear, and upon direction of the SO, shooter may either use a holster/fanny pack/etc to secure cold weapon, or shooter may utilize a handgun case to secure cold weapon or in the case of a mouse gun shooter may place cold weapon inside a pants or vest pocket. Dropping a cold weapon will result in a 20 second penalty. Dropping a loaded weapon will minimally result in a 20 second penalty and can be reason for DQ at the MD discretion. DQ will be at the SO discretion for any unsafe gun handling with any shooter's appeal to MD for final decision.

Following SO’s direction to load and make ready, shooter may load weapon as he/she wishes. Gun may be fully loaded or down loaded at shooter’s discretion (as long as it is logically the way one would normally carry the MD/BUG and not for a competitive advantage. Example would be downloading the magazine by one round). Shooter may also start with magazine seated without a round in chamber. Reloads may be done at any time and in any manner, at shooter’s discretion as long as they are done safely. Full or partially loaded magazines need not be retained.

Safety: shooting glasses and hearing protection is required. Concealment/cover will not be required as there will not be any drawing at this match. Normal shooting safety issues will be followed. Shooter will keep finger out of trigger guard while reloading and while moving if not engaging threats.

CoF/Scenarios: The scenarios will attempt to give the shooter an opportunity to utilize their BUG or Mouse Gun in situations that one might realistically have to use this type of weapon. Maximum distance to target should not exceed approximately15 yds with most threats 3-10 yds from shooter. CoF should utilize props to simulate realistic situations where a BUG/MG might be utilized. Moving props should be utilized to present shooter with a more realistic threat, but moving targets should be kept to a minimum and should be placed to give a realistic target for a BUG/MG weapon.

Large number of Non-threats to threat ratio may be utilized to give a more realistic CoF.

Round Count: 30-50 scored threats with individual CoF ranging from 1 scored threat to a maximum of 10 scored threats.


Let me know what you think


Thanks
Garry N

[HighVelocity]

You had me right up to the "15 yard target" part. The thought of taking a 15 yard shot with my Beretta Tomcat is nothing short of comical.

Other than that, I think it sounds like a ton of fun and would be willing to make the drive down from Fort Worth to participate if my schedule permits.


Gary J.

[ea40ss]

Sounds like a good time. I'd be interested in shooting the match.
Bug and Mouse divisions.
Eric

[solaritx]

one or two targets in a total of 30-50 at 15 yds should be realistic <g>

I got that distance when I paced off the distance from my bedroom door, down the hall to our den. I have to say, with my Kel-Tec .32, it should be interesting as well <g>

When I discussed this distance with a few of the others down here, their reply......."that's why there are reloads" <g>

most all the shots should be 10 yds and in.........fast and fun is what we are thinking

Garry N

[jbirds1210]

I would definitely be interested if my schedule permits. My Glock 26 loves an evening out. I will bring some extra ones

[Skiprr]

I think these kind of matches are a great idea...not only becasue they would be fun, but because many of us have to, at times, do without our preferred carry gun and have to be satisfied with only a BUG or MG. And I sure as heck don't practice nearly as much with a palm-gun as I do with my reg'lars.

Just a couple of offhand thoughts. We have a solid definition of what constitutes a BUG in the IDPA rulebook (if you choose to use that), but I'm wondering if your rules need to formalize "Mouse Gun" a little tighter...just so it's clear and unambiguous.

Similarly, there's some explanation of the number of rounds to load, but I'm thinking it might make sense--as IDPA does for all divisions--to specify a maximum round count per division. From a tactical/practical standpoint, someone might carry a Glock 17 as their primary, and a G26 as their BUG...partly because, if the 10-round mag (or more, if they've put on an extension) in the G26 gets depleted, the 17-round mags carried as spares for the G17 will fit nicely. Too, if someone brings, say, a Kahr P9 and competes against a G26, at stock capacity, the Kahr starts at a 3-round disadvantage. Just thinkin' out loud.

I could also see the "Other" division become unnecessary, certainly if you get a lot of participation and also allow folks to reshoot scenarios. Having full-size guns shooting seems like it sorta defeats the "Mouse Gun Match" notion, and folks opting to shoot their normal firearms might slow down the match. And does "Alternative Revolver" similarly include any size firearm?

Something I think would be way cool, not to mention important to practice if you carry a BUG--but for safety reasons I doubt we'll ever see at an organized match--are CoFs that require a transition from primary gun to BUG.

Kinda wonderin' why the FTN and HNT are so much higher than regular IDPA. Not that I wouldn't agree that maybe IDPA needs to increase these two penalties , but just wonderin' if deviating from the standard scoring scheme too much might cause some confusion. Prolly a very minor thing, and I gotta admit I like having the HNT the highest penalty on the scorecard.

It'll be interesting to see how that 2-reshoot "mulligan" rule works out. That could be a fun, game-strategic element. I sorta think if the shooter requests another go, that the first score should be wiped and the second try be the only one that counts. That way it becomes a real decision whether or not to use the option. You get an FTN on one string, and come close to a nearby non-threat, you can try that run again with impunity: even if you perforate the non-threat on the second attempt you can still fallback to your first score. I think it'd be more interesting to erase the slate and make that second run really count.

If you need volunteers to help pull it together, let me know! (The domain name TDCPPS.COM is available--Texas Deep Concealment Practical Pistol Shooters; or TDCTACS.COM--Texas Deep Concealment Tactical Shooters )

[solaritx]

Good information.

IDPA is good but I think that a neutralize or FTN is a more "realistic" way of scoring, and we have done this in our 3-gun for several years now. It is very quick and easy to score.

In a more "realistic" (and hopefully fun) way of looking at this......if you go to a MG or BUG, If you do not neutralize a threat in this situation then FTN can (and prob. will) mean death. I think FTN should mean something. You can scan and (if need be) reshoot a threat or threats and still be under the 10 second penalty......so this is the rational behind that.

Hits on Non-threats should always have been counted as more, IMO. In this case, 20 seconds. Again, more "realistic". You hit someone "in real life" and there are more problems then a slight 5 second slap on the wrist <g>

In thinking about divisions, I also agree. I am seeing that it will prob. be MANDATORY to enter in either the MG or BUG or J-Fram division. Then they may also enter one of the other divisions as an addition. This of course might have to be limited depending on number of shooters, etc.
30-50 round match should/will go pretty fast, so even with a reasonable number of shooters, I think that having a chance to shoot the match multiple times would be fun. The first division entered would be for score, all others would be for fun.

I also now agree with you about the reshoots. Ask for a reshoot, and your second shoot is your score. Will make the shooter think.

Garry

[Skiprr]

Thanks, Gary.

If I can help pull any of the pieces together, you got my volunteer committment.

[solaritx]

forgot:

Rounds in gun: Some carry weapons with round in chamber and full mag, some carry pocket (and other pistols) without a round in chamber and a full mag. Some also (from military and other training) download mags by one round. (I personally carry all my guns that use a magazine downloaded by one round)

the basic premise of this match is "shoot what you brought, in the condition that you normally carry it".

In looking at this, I do not really see a "fair" way of making everyone have the same number of rounds. This (for me) is more a case of using a gun that I normally don't get to use in a forum that I would not get a chance to do often..........then see how I do.

Garry

[Target1911]

Put me on the list of I will attend per schedule.....
( that is if High Veloctiy doesnt have a problem with spliting the gas)

[Jeremae]

If it is scheduled right, the Dallas folk can come and shoot at the TTS "Single Stack Classic match" at end of december.....

Not everything is set yet but looks like we're gonna shoot a match using idpa targets and scoring but ispc single stack rules and target arrays.

Gary... I'm BUG and MG challenged right now, I assume I can shoot my kimber custom in the other category...

[solaritx]

when and where is this single stack? Then I can look into working it out <g>

This very well may become a "if you make it, they will come" and yea, somehow we will let you shoot that Kimber......but first, ya got to stick it in your front pocket. (this I just got to see)

Garry

[Jeremae]

The TTS Single Stack Classic is scheduled for Dec 29th at Thunder.

Tried my Kimber in front pocket and it works but I need a LONG shirt to conceal it.