PC46.035 (b)(6)

[Papalote]

Please clarify as I have found what I believe are conflicting statements in the TxCHLaws handbook 2003-2004. The titled public code states that we are not allowed to carry in a church or place of worship. BUT.........in the same handbook, page 62, FAQs, Where can I not take my handgun? .........the answer says you are prohibited only if signs are posted. What is the real interpretation here?? I am I reading this totally wrong? Please fill me in on the correct answer.


Papalote

[Kalrog]

It is my understanding that it used to be that churches and hospitals were always prohibited, but in a latter legislative session the rules were changed to make those places no different than the general population - that being that a 30.06 sign is required. It is that change and funny way of modifying the statute that makes for the confusion, but that you should be legal in a church unless they have a 30.06 compliant sign posted.

Any lawyers want to chime in?

[Charles L. Cotton]

It is my understanding that it used to be that churches and hospitals were always prohibited, but in a latter legislative session the rules were changed to make those places no different than the general population - that being that a 30.06 sign is required. It is that change and funny way of modifying the statute that makes for the confusion, but that you should be legal in a church unless they have a 30.06 compliant sign posted.

Any lawyers want to chime in?

You're correct. If there is no 30.06 sign (or verbal notice), then a CHL can carry in a church, hospital, nursing home, or meeting of a governmental entity or agency. (see TPC §46.035(i))

Regards,
Chas.

[nemesis]

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor
was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

[Papalote]

Nemesis, I now see what I overlooked (i). Why could they not state that closer to (b)(6)? Thanks to all for the clarification.

Papalote

[stevie_d_64]

It is my understanding that it used to be that churches and hospitals were always prohibited, but in a latter legislative session the rules were changed to make those places no different than the general population - that being that a 30.06 sign is required. It is that change and funny way of modifying the statute that makes for the confusion, but that you should be legal in a church unless they have a 30.06 compliant sign posted.

Any lawyers want to chime in?

You're correct. If there is no 30.06 sign (or verbal notice), then a CHL can carry in a church, hospital, nursing home, or meeting of a governmental entity or agency. (see TPC §46.035(i))

Regards,
Chas.

So just to make sure...And not that I need to go there right away...yet...

If I want to go address city counsel, and city hall is not posted, I don't have to disarm, and lock mine up in the truck, before I proceed to entre city hall...

And if city hall has a security screening, (i.e. metal detectors and wands) and I have to be "special badged" to continue in, like I do at the cities public works building downtown...Thats ok by me...

[Charles L. Cotton]

The entire city hall building doesn't have to be posted; indeed it shouldn't be. As I understand, the City of Houston either posts a 30.06 sign outside of the Council Chambers when a meeting is underway, or they have an HPD officer tell you you can't go into the meeting with a gun. Either way, the meeting is off limits. The verbal warning can be given at the time you get the red visitor's badge, so be careful. (Remember, §46.035(i) requires notice pursuant to §30.06, which can be either a 30.06 compliant sign, or a verbal warning.)

Regards,
Chas.

[barres]

So who at the church has the authority to verbally ban CHL's? Can any attendee tell whoever they want that concealed carry is not allowed?

[rgoldy]

In most churches that would be the board of deacons or the equivalent since they are the elected/selected representatives of the congregation,
since the congregation owns the property. In theory, that decision should reflect the majority of the congregations feelings on the matter. In most places the pastor is an employee of the congregation and would take instruction from the church board on this matter. Of course this may not be true in those places where the pastor is appointed to the church by an outside agency. Still, I think the congregation owns the property usually and they would be the ones to decide on posting or not. If the deacons or whatever they are called do not reflect the majority, then it would seem time to get replacements?

[gigag04]

So who at the church has the authority to verbally ban CHL's? Can any attendee tell whoever they want that concealed carry is not allowed?

In baptist circles, the head pastor would be the voice. Other staff would follow his lead on such a matter.

[rgoldy]

GIGAG, is the head pastor not an employee of the congregation? I would expect the church to take its lead on spiritual matters from the pastor, but the administration and operation of the church?

[ShootingStar]

rgoldy

I hope you don't mind me inserting my .02. I happen to be a Deacon in a Baptist Church and was on the Pastor Search Committee that recommended our current pastor and served on the Personnel committee.

In most Baptist churches, a committee is elected to search out candidates that would be suitable to serve as pastor of the church. Then the man is presented "in view of a call" before the church congregation for a vote. By this point much time is spent in prayer for God's guidance so that the right man is chosen. If he is voted in, then he is the head of the church. Basically, it's a theocracy. At least it's supposed to be. In some churches, the deacons run the show though they are not supposed to. The pastor is accountable to the congregation though. If he was to do something wrong, then he could be removed.

While my opinion would is not exactly law, it's currently the only one that you have! :-)

With that I would say that the pastor, Deacons, or Church Council would be considered authority enough to prevent you from carrying. Now understanding how things work might allow you to get around one deacon or council member, but you would first have to talk to them as a group.

Here's an example of the use of church authority. We had a problem with a young man who came to youth Sunday School drunk from the night before. He was asked to leave and not return. A few weeks later, he returned and threatened the pastor's wife. The police were called and he was read the trespass warning. The pastor was there and could have done it by himself. He is viewed as the head of the church not an employee. Basically anyone who is a part of the church government could do it at least temporarily until the wheels of progress start turning. Read meetings and more meetings....

Baptist churches are very autonomous whereas Catholic churches have a strong central authority. Most likely the priest would decide, but I have never attended a Catholic church. I would say that it would be better to attend a church where people are not preoccupied with such things. There have been people who have let me know how they feel about carrying in church, but they are entitled to their opinion. I carry anyway when I can. We're very close at my church and we hug a lot so I use discretion when I carry.

We also have a lot of CHLs too. God works in mysterious ways. He also carries a .45 too.

[KBCraig]

Here's an example of the use of church authority. We had a problem with a young man who came to youth Sunday School drunk from the night before. He was asked to leave and not return.

Okay, I realize this is way off topic, and could even go the route of the KJV discussion, but I've got to say this...

I hope there is a lot more to the story than this, because I believe churches need a heckuva lot more people in the pews who are hung over or drunk, or strung out, or dressed "inappropriately", being greeted in love by people who know exactly what that used to be like.

I've heard it said, and I agree, that too many "fishers of men" want to clean the catch before they'll let it in the boat.

Kevin

[carlson1]

So who at the church has the authority to verbally ban CHL's? Can any attendee tell whoever they want that concealed carry is not allowed?

In baptist circles, the head pastor would be the voice. Other staff would follow his lead on such a matter.

+ one at FBC in Irving.
I am not touching the KJV thing again Our Church has By Laws and a Church Constitution. Our Church is a Cooperation. According to By Laws the Pastor is the President and has total authority Now, our deacons do nothing but cut grass and visit old people. This issue has been covered at our Little Baptist Church, so everyone understand it is OK to carry and is encouraged. My $.02.

[ShootingStar]

KBCraig,

I agree with your point about Not forcing people to "clean up" before letting them in the door of a church. I know the people who handled the incident and I trust their judgment. This young man had followed the youth minister from his last church, so the two went back several years. The decision was made based upon the safety of the other youth that also attend. It was in no way due to how he dressed or anything superficial. He had many problems that he refused to address and was very belligerent. It seemed to get worse as he got older. The youth minister is the type of guy that would bend over backwards for anyone and had invested years with this young man.

As far as I know, and I go back around 20 years, no one has ever been asked to leave the youth department at our church. It just reached a point where the safety of the other youth was at risk. Believe me, no one gets preferential treatment and it has to be a bad situation before anyone would be asked to leave.

This young man is now in federal prison because of poor choices that he made as a young adult. I worked in the youth ministry and you do the best that you can to reach as many as you can. Like each one was your own kid. That's the prevalent attitude at my church and why I have been there so long.

Tim