Yes we need them in church too

one eyed fatman · Post by **one eyed fatman** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:36 pm

Gunman Kills Woman in Detroit Church

By MICHAEL J. FEENEY Associated Press Writer
Â© 2006 The Associated Press

DETROIT â€” A man opened fire during a church service Sunday, killing an 18-year-old woman and wounding her child before shooting another man outside, according to police.

Investigators believe a domestic dispute led to the shooting at Zion Hope Missionary Baptist Church about 11 a.m., said Second Deputy Police Chief James Tate.

Many of the hundreds of people in the church screamed as they ducked under the pews for protection, said Ann Armstrong, 30, who was attending the service.

"I seen him come in through the balcony door, and he pulled the gun from under his coat," Armstrong said. "He just started shooting her, then he shot at the pulpit."

No one at the pulpit was hit, but a bullet struck a musical instrument she said.

Police did not identify the victims. The child did not have life-threatening injuries, but the third victim was in critical condition after he was shot trying to protect his wife from a carjacking attempt by the gunman, WWJ-AM reported.

Tate said officers were looking for Kevin Lorenzo Collins, 24, who was considered armed and dangerous.

After the gunman left, church members embraced each other before continuing to pray as police started coming in, she said.

"It was a lot of crying, a lot of hugging and a lot of praying," she said.

Church members then continued the service, Tate said.

"They didn't let this incident stop the reason why they came to church," he said. "They came to worship."

JLaw · Post by **JLaw** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:16 pm

I'll be the first to admit...

When I'm in church my pistol is in the truck...

Maybe I should rethink that.

JLaw

gigag04 · Post by **gigag04** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:31 pm

this brings me back to the defense under persecution for faith thing.

I'll fight back for any other reason, but if you want to kill me for loving Jesus...I'll probably take that one.

I know most of you wouldn't agree...but thats the beauty of living in America.

quidni · Post by **quidni** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:34 pm

(deleted because I hit ENTER too soon

)

Kalrog · Post by **Kalrog** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:41 pm

I only KNOW of one other who packs all the time - and he is an LEO. There are a few others that I suspect though. And yes, it is with me at all times.

quidni · Post by **quidni** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:42 pm

Our congregation has more than one CHL holder who carries during the services - with the preacher's blessing!

gigag - that's one I'd probably be willing to take, as well, except for one thing - if the BG's not taken out, what's to keep him from shooting someone else, as well? It's not just self-defense, it's also defense of others - and I wouldn't want to face the Throne if others died just because I was willing to under those circumstances.

jbirds1210 · Post by **jbirds1210** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:00 pm

I never carried in church until a couple of years ago...I was talking to the pastor when he bent over to pick up his pencil.......revealing a belt slide with a commander .45. We were range buddies so I was not totally shocked.
Many pastors that staff churches throughout the week are alone and deal with a great deal of transient people. Most likely 99.9 percent of these people mean no harm and are asking for food...but there is a first time for everything.
I have found a new friends in my little Glock 26 and she pretty much goes everywhere with me.
Jason

txinvestigator · Post by **txinvestigator** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:21 pm

gigag04 wrote: but if you want to kill me for loving Jesus...I'll probably take that one.

Why would you imagine that your love of Jesus would be a gunman's motive?

longtooth · Post by **longtooth** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:25 pm

JLaw I think you need to rethink it too & I am the preacher.
gigago4, you are right too. When we are persecuted for our faith we receive it because we have been counted worthy to suffer for Christ. I don't see any evidence of Christian persecution in the above incident. Only hate in a domestic quarrel & the choice of a probable "no fight back, safe for me place to do my dirty deed." Carrying in church is not for everyone. Let God our Holy Spirit give you your personal answer.
Kalrog, good job. Now you know 2 who are armed at church ALL THE TIME & I am not LEO, just the preacher.
jbirds, your preacher is not the only one on Sundays w/ one. I know several preachers that are armed on Sunday. One real well.

quidni, if you ever make it out of the desert to the Deep East Tex. Piney Woods there will be another preacher that will bless the Lord for your extra weight also.

KBCraig · Post by **KBCraig** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:15 pm

This reminds me... I've got a friend who is convinced that Jesus was (is!) a pacifist, and violence even in self-defense is wrong. I promised him a Bible study, so I need to brush up.

Aside from "sell your cloak and buy one" (already got that one covered), any pointers would be appreciated. KJV or otherwise.

Kevin

quidni · Post by **quidni** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:29 pm

KBCraig wrote:This reminds me... I've got a friend who is convinced that Jesus was (is!) a pacifist, and violence even in self-defense is wrong. I promised him a Bible study, so I need to brush up.

Aside from "sell your cloak and buy one" (already got that one covered), any pointers would be appreciated. KJV or otherwise.

Kevin

Try these links:
Ask the Rabbi: A Biblical Model of Self Defense

God and the M60 Machine Gun

Paladin · Post by **Paladin** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:22 pm

From studying history, carrying in church always seemed like a good idea.

I tried it for the first time, not all that long ago... and it is a good idea.

Scott Murray · Post by **Scott Murray** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:59 pm

KBCraig wrote:This reminds me... I've got a friend who is convinced that Jesus was (is!) a pacifist, and violence even in self-defense is wrong. I promised him a Bible study, so I need to brush up.

Aside from "sell your cloak and buy one" (already got that one covered), any pointers would be appreciated. KJV or otherwise.

Kevin

Jesus is a pacifist? You could reflect on the occasion he made a whip and drove the money changers from the temple court. Or you could consider Revelation 19:11-21. ".... and in righteousness He judges and wages war..."

You could dicuss the reference to a strong man defending his house in Matt 12:29 and Mark 3:27. Although Jesus was making a different point, the willingness of a man to defend his home was assumed.

If you have an online Bible, do a search on phrases like "be strong," "courage," and "act like men." You'll find that both the old and new testament are full of admonitions to these qualities, often in the context of warfare.

There's a time and place for martyrdom. Usually in scripture it was at the hands of government. It was always a demonstration of faith that served as a witness of God to others. But there's also a time to stand and defend the life God has given: to yourself, to your family, and other innocents.

Scott

gigag04 · Post by **gigag04** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:42 pm

gigag04 wrote:I know most of you wouldn't agree

See

I told you that most of you would disagree. I'm not going to further push my point...but I want everyone that has posted and will post to realize that I already know what you are saying and can see your point. I just respectfully disagree.

Let's get back to shooting/carrying.

-nick

flintknapper · Post by **flintknapper** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:05 pm

Scott Murray wrote:
KBCraig wrote:This reminds me... I've got a friend who is convinced that Jesus was (is!) a pacifist, and violence even in self-defense is wrong. I promised him a Bible study, so I need to brush up.

Aside from "sell your cloak and buy one" (already got that one covered), any pointers would be appreciated. KJV or otherwise.

Kevin

Jesus is a pacifist? You could reflect on the occasion he made a whip and drove the money changers from the temple court. Or you could consider Revelation 19:11-21. ".... and in righteousness He judges and wages war..."

You could dicuss the reference to a strong man defending his house in Matt 12:29 and Mark 3:27. Although Jesus was making a different point, the willingness of a man to defend his home was assumed.

If you have an online Bible, do a search on phrases like "be strong," "courage," and "act like men." You'll find that both the old and new testament are full of admonitions to these qualities, often in the context of warfare.

There's a time and place for martyrdom. Usually in scripture it was at the hands of government. It was always a demonstration of faith that served as a witness of God to others. But there's also a time to stand and defend the life God has given: to yourself, to your family, and other innocents.

Scott

Well said.