Personal Defense Ammo

[NORMAN]

I recentley purchased a 3" Kimber 1911 45 ACP. What is the best defense ammo out there that will answer 2 questions:

1. Avoid over penetration in close quarters
2. Best ammo to cycle in a 3" Ultra ??

I hear 3" Ultras are finicky about what they feed ??

Thanks, Norman

[adam71176]

I don't have a Kimber Ultra, but those that I know who do carry either gold dot 230 gr. or Federal Hydra-Shok 230 gr. Either seem to be top notch and feed well in the 3" models. I don't believe that either pose a significant risk in over penetration, but don't quote me, both of their websites will show testing results.

[The Annoyed Man]

I have a 3" Ultra and carry it pretty much daily. It is one of the least finicky pistols I've ever owned. Completely reliable.

I have fired, without any problems, the following personal defense ammo in it:
• Federal 230 Gr Hyrdo-Shoks
• Federal 230 Gr HST
• Speer LE Gold Dot
• Magtech 230 Gr JHP
• Winchester 230 Gr SXZ JHP

I have fired, without any problems, the following practice ammo in it:
• Monarch 230 Gr FMJ
• Remington UMC 230 Gr FMJ
• Remington Green/White Box 230 Gr FMJ
• Winchester SXZ 230 Gr FMJ
• Winchester White Box 230 Gr FMJ
• American Eagle 230 Gr FMJ
• Magtech 230 Gr FMJ

In my 3" Kimber, the daily carry load is the Federal HST. Before that, it was the Federal Hydro-Shoks. Pretty much any of the better ammunition manufacturers make a 230 grain hollowpoint that will work just fine in yours. Pick one, fire a few rounds to make sure that it feeds reliably in your pistol (no reason why it shouldn't, really), and carry it in confidence. None of them will over-penetrate, particularly at the somewhat lower velocities produced by a 3" barrel.

Modern hollowpoint technology has the over-penetration issue pretty much taken care of. A hollowpoint will likely pass right through an arm or a lower leg. It may pass through a thigh, although possibly not. It will almost certainly not pass through a torso. If fired from close enough, it will most probably pass through a head. The lesson? COM, COM, COM!

Shoot for COM, and your penetration issues are moot — not to mention that the other guy may decide that he suddenly has more pressing issues than laying hands on your wallet.

[bdickens]

You just about can't go wrong with something used by a lagre metropolitan police department. They spend a lot of effort in testing. Some of it real-world.

[casingpoint]

Pick one, fire a few rounds to make sure that it feeds reliably in your pistol (no reason why it shouldn't, really), and carry it in confidence

I thought the rule of thumb was to shoot 200 rounds of any chosen ammo through a semi auto before you rely on it for carry. That's a little pricey these days. I'd probably just shoot ball ammo in a 45. It comes already expanded...

[The Annoyed Man]

Pick one, fire a few rounds to make sure that it feeds reliably in your pistol (no reason why it shouldn't, really), and carry it in confidence

I thought the rule of thumb was to shoot 200 rounds of any chosen ammo through a semi auto before you rely on it for carry. That's a little pricey these days. I'd probably just shoot ball ammo in a 45. It comes already expanded...

Yes, you make sure it functions reliably in your pistol — for the first time — by running whatever you're going to carry through it. For some, that might mean 200 rounds. For others it might be more or less. It does make for an expensive day at the range, but on the other hand, it's a lot cheaper than a hospital bill or a funeral. But that doesn't mean you have to practice with it from then on.

[gemini]

The Annoyed Man:
"I have a 3" Ultra and carry it pretty much daily. It is one of the least finicky pistols I've ever owned. Completely reliable".

Ditto on the Ultra. As far as SD ammo; if you have to shoot someone, they won't care if it's Silver Tip or the
latest and greatest HST, Gold Dot etc. I believe their main concern will be pain. Just find one that works in your gun.

[TheReverend]

what would you recommend for a 9mm?
XDM 9mm if it makes a difference.

[Stupid]

Try this guide:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defen ... /index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Barnes XPB/TAC-XP 185gr HP loaded by:
Cor-Bon (DPX45185)
Taurus (TCB45ACP185HP)
Winchester Ranger-T 230gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230gr JHP +P (RA45TP)
Federal Tactical 230gr JHP (LE45T1)
Federal HST 230gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal HST 230gr JHP (P45HST2)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP (23966)

I personally use Speer 23966 and Federal P45HST1 in my 45 Ultra CDP II.

[casingpoint]

I suspect the velocity drops in the new short barreled 45 ACP's is behind the development of +P 45 ACP to insure enough speed for expansion. Perhaps the 45, like the 9mm cartridge, is near the top end of it's capacity with +P loads and still comes up short on desired results. You really have to wonder if the 45 wasn't eclipsed ballistically by the .40 S&W, and rightly so. Particularly in view the efficacy of modern hollow point ammunition. Which leads us to the next question. Was there ever a .40 caliber 19ll? That would be, as they say nowadays, sweet. Very sweet.

[Excaliber]

I have a 3" Ultra and carry it pretty much daily. It is one of the least finicky pistols I've ever owned. Completely reliable.

I have fired, without any problems, the following personal defense ammo in it:
• Federal 230 Gr Hyrdo-Shoks
• Federal 230 Gr HST
• Speer LE Gold Dot
• Magtech 230 Gr JHP
• Winchester 230 Gr SXZ JHP

I have fired, without any problems, the following practice ammo in it:
• Monarch 230 Gr FMJ
• Remington UMC 230 Gr FMJ
• Remington Green/White Box 230 Gr FMJ
• Winchester SXZ 230 Gr FMJ
• Winchester White Box 230 Gr FMJ
• American Eagle 230 Gr FMJ
• Magtech 230 Gr FMJ

In my 3" Kimber, the daily carry load is the Federal HST. Before that, it was the Federal Hydro-Shoks. Pretty much any of the better ammunition manufacturers make a 230 grain hollowpoint that will work just fine in yours. Pick one, fire a few rounds to make sure that it feeds reliably in your pistol (no reason why it shouldn't, really), and carry it in confidence. None of them will over-penetrate, particularly at the somewhat lower velocities produced by a 3" barrel.

Modern hollowpoint technology has the over-penetration issue pretty much taken care of. A hollowpoint will likely pass right through an arm or a lower leg. It may pass through a thigh, although possibly not. It will almost certainly not pass through a torso. If fired from close enough, it will most probably pass through a head. The lesson? COM, COM, COM!

Shoot for COM, and your penetration issues are moot — not to mention that the other guy may decide that he suddenly has more pressing issues than laying hands on your wallet.

I have a 3" Ultra Carry as well with about 5,000 rounds through it. I can add Remington 230 gr JHP Golden Sabre, Remington 185 gr JHP and Wolf 230 gr FMJ to the Annoyed Man's list of ammo that feeds reliably in it.

Even at today's ammo prices, I would consider a test of at very least 100 rounds of self defense ammo fed through all magazines to be carried without a failure of any kind the absolute minimum acceptable.

Be sure to follow Kimber's recommendations for replacing the recoil springs (it has 2) at the round counts they suggest. I can confirm from personal experience that prolonging the service interval leads to erratic failures to feed and eventually a catastrophic failure of the recoil spring assembly which will take the gun completely out of action - a considerable annoyance on the range and a potentially fatal embarrassment in a defensive encounter.

[Excaliber]

I suspect the velocity drops in the new short barreled 45 ACP's is behind the development of +P 45 ACP to insure enough speed for expansion. Perhaps the 45, like the 9mm cartridge, is near the top end of it's capacity with +P loads and still comes up short on desired results. You really have to wonder if the 45 wasn't eclipsed ballistically by the .40 S&W, and rightly so. Particularly in view the efficacy of modern hollow point ammunition. Which leads us to the next question. Was there ever a .40 caliber 19ll? That would be, as they say nowadays, sweet. Very sweet.

Yes, there have been (and are) 1911 pistols chambered for the .40 S&W. Here's one from Springfield Armory.

The .40 S&W wasn't developed to eclipse the .45. It actually grew out of the FBI's efforts to adopt a ballistically superior alternative to the 9mm after the infamous Miami shootout without what were seen at the time as significant political issues associated with adopting the existing .45ACP cartridge. An agent I had met while attending the FBI National Academy was placed in charge of the search for a new issue cartridge.

The first incarnation was a 10mm round that proved to be a challenge for some agents to shoot well due to its stiff recoil, and the guns developed to use it were large, heavy, hard to conceal for small framed agents, and generally not friendly for all day carry. A downloaded version of the cartridge was created to address this problem, but, since the cartridge cases remained the same, the guns remained uncomfortably large and heavy. The .40 S&W was developed to duplicate the ballistic performance of the downloaded 10mm round with a smaller cartridge case big enough to hold the downloaded powder charge and small enough to fit into a gun with dimensions and weight closer to the characteristics of existing 9mm pistols. Because it packs less velocity and energy than the full house 10mm round it was developed from, the new cartridge was sometimes referred to as the .40 "short and weak." This doesn't do it justice, because it is ballistically superior to the 9mm and it enjoys a generally good reputation for doing its part when the shooter does his or hers.

This chambering is common in Glocks, Springfield XD's, and many other semiauto pistol lines and is in common use in many law enforcement agencies. It is hard to find in the 1911 because the shooters who prefer the 1911 design almost universally favor the proven performance of the .45ACP cartridge, which has a very good combat record with hollow point ammunition of almost any major manufacturer's current design. The .40 S&W is seen by these people as an interesting but unnecessary solution to a nonexistent problem. Since these folks won't put down their money to buy 1911's in this caliber, very few manufacturers are willing to make them at all, and none do so in quantity due to the very small number of buyers willing to pay to own them. You can find one if you look, but the price will probably be significantly more than you'd pay for the same gun in either 9mm or .45ACP chambering.

[srothstein]

I have to second what Excaliber says about the 1911 in .40. I know of two people that have them (both Springfields). They bought them when the state was only allowing people to carry .40 caliber weapons but did not care what the pistol was. As soon as the rules relaxed, they went back to .45's. I prefer the .45 overall for its effectiveness and the 1911 platform. It is my weapon of choice. I also have a Glock 22 in .40 for when it was my required duty weapon.

Among officers who are gun enthusiasts, the 1911 or the revolver seem to be the platforms of choice in my expereince. But agencies that allow officers to carry anything they want are getting fewer every day. And most agencies that issue weapons seem to have settled on the Glock 22 as the most popular choice (both platform and caliber). The Glock platform wins for its simplicity, dependability, and - most importantly - price when agencies make the purchase. The .40 seems to win because the FBI chose it more than anything else. Their voice in law enforcement is powerful when other agencies look at research and decision making.

The combination of the individual preferences and the agency preferences seems to make the market for .40 caliber 1911's small. They are out there, but hard to find without looking for.

[bdickens]

what would you recommend for a 9mm?
XDM 9mm if it makes a difference.

NYPD has been happy with the 124gr. +P Gold Dot. They shoot a lot of people. That's what I chose.

Truthfully, there really isn't a nickel's worth of difference among any of the premium rounds.

[casingpoint]

Truthfully, there really isn't a nickel's worth of difference among any of the premium rounds

Possibly this one has finally broken through the crowd:
http://www.hornadyle.com/products/more_ ... =106&pID=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Appreciate all the feedback on the forty and 1911's.