heres my situation

[striker55]

Working 3rd shift behind the desk at a hotel. Masked man comes in to rob me. Do I have to see a gun before I can draw on him? I'm thinking if he's masked he's up to no good and I'm not waiting to find out if he has a gun. If he makes a move like he's going for a gun do I shoot? Tough questions.

[joe817]

A gun is a tool of last resort that you use to save your life. Seeing a guy in a mask is NOT using deadly force, or potential deadly force against you. You are not justified in using deadly force(or pulling a gun on him) just because he's wearing a mask.

It SHOULD cause you to go to condition red; having your gun ready to be drawn and used if the situation escalates to a deadly force encounter; full attention and focus to the potential BG.

Drawing on him when he's done nothing could get you in much trouble with the law, if potential BG turns around and calls the PD.

That's my $.02 worth. I'm sure others will chime in with their opinions

[Dragonfighter]

Working 3rd shift behind the desk at a hotel. Masked man comes in to rob me. Do I have to see a gun before I can draw on him? I'm thinking if he's masked he's up to no good and I'm not waiting to find out if he has a gun. If he makes a move like he's going for a gun do I shoot? Tough questions.

To paraphrase the great John Wayne, "A man oughtta do what he thinks is best." There is the "standard" of reasonableness.

Sec. 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor REASONABLY believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor's belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:

(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:

(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;

(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or

(C) was committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery;

(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and

(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.

I do not see anything that says you have to see a gun or other weapon. Seeing a masked man come into my premises or business, especially late at night would be a reasonable cause to assume the worst.

ADDED in EDIT: Waiting to see a gun may be the last thing you see.

[wgoforth]

You have to be able to say you were fearful for your life. Only you can determine at what point you were.

[joe817]

I do not see anything that says you have to see a gun or other weapon. Seeing a masked man come into my premises or business, especially late at night would be a reasonable cause to assume the worst.

And shoot him?? This a "shoot first and ask questions later" train of thought. You're going to shoot him because he has a mask on.

Well this is where we agree to disagree. And I'll leave it at that, and let others offer their opinion.

Thanks for expressing yours.

[Dragonfighter]

You have to be able to say you were fearful for your life. Only you can determine at what point you were.

If I may, a small semantic nit to pick. To be justified you have to BE in fear of an imminent threat to your life and health, robbery, rape, etc. The whys, whens and to what extent you were reasonable is determined after the fact.

There are plenty of examples where people were exonerated even after shooting an "innocent" person due to the circumstances meeting the criteria of "reasonableness", guilty conscience not withstanding.

[Purplehood]

I find myself dissecting the question.

If I was standing behind a typical counter and I saw a guy wearing a mask walk in, I would indeed pull a gun out and keep it totally hidden behind the counter until and unless I was convinced that a threat did indeed exist.
If It turned out that the guy was wearing a mask because he is particularly ugly and I am relatively convinced of that, I would set the weapon under the counter on a shelf or in an open drawer.

I don't foresee any difficulty with the above scenario.

[Dragonfighter]

I don't foresee any difficulty with the above scenario.

Nor I, good call.

[dihappy]

I work in a hotel. I occasionally work the front desk, and i occasionally carry.

I can see the front door, if someone with a mask walks in i can easily place my hand on my weapon and/or run. But im not pulling until i know whats going on.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

There's a video out there somewhere (I can't find it or
I'd link to it) where a hotel is being robbed.

There are 2 employees working behind the front desk, a man who is
sitting at a PC typing, and a woman who is standing.

On the customer side of the counter there is a woman standing,
holding a baby.

When the bad guy starts the robbery, the seated employee
draws a semi-auto pistol, stands up, and begins shooting right in front
of the baby's face. The mother backs up as the GG shoots
multiple rounds at the perp.

The bad guy runs out, but I believe that he was hit.

If anyone can find this and post this, it's an awesome video.
It's scary that the GG is firing so close to the baby, but he
sends the BG running. The video might be on http://www.trutv.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;,
but I don't have time to search it.

SIA

[wgoforth]

You have to be able to say you were fearful for your life. Only you can determine at what point you were.

If I may, a small semantic nit to pick. To be justified you have to BE in fear of an imminent threat to your life and health, robbery, rape, etc. The whys, whens and to what extent you were reasonable is determined after the fact.

There are plenty of examples where people were exonerated even after shooting an "innocent" person due to the circumstances meeting the criteria of "reasonableness", guilty conscience not withstanding.

We are saying the same, but from a different standpoint. I mean it to say you cannot just claim after the fact you were in fear of your life. That you have to be able to (honestly) say that you were.

Since PC 9.32.2.b lists robbery as a time of proper use of deadly force, would this not fit?
Also, pc 9.41-42 deals with robbery of ones or anothers property as a time for such. Though not necessarily loss of life, it can involve loss of property apparently. Someone who knows the law better might wish to add here.

ADDED EDITED NOTE: I misunderstood originally. I thought it was a case where a guy was coming in to rob but just couldn't determine if your life was in danger, ie, had a gun and/or was threatening you.

[Target1911]

With winter upon us, you do have to think that possibly he is just cold and not there to rob you.
Yes I would say to be in the red and ready for action. i would even ask him to remove the mask.
Now if he come thru the door barking comands (gimmie ur cash) all betas are off as you know why he is there.

[TLynnHughes]

There's a video out there somewhere (I can't find it or
I'd link to it) where a hotel is being robbed.

There are 2 employees working behind the front desk, a man who is
sitting at a PC typing, and a woman who is standing.

On the customer side of the counter there is a woman standing,
holding a baby.

When the bad guy starts the robbery, the seated employee
draws a semi-auto pistol, stands up, and begins shooting right in front
of the baby's face. The mother backs up as the GG shoots
multiple rounds at the perp.

The bad guy runs out, but I believe that he was hit.

If anyone can find this and post this, it's an awesome video.
It's scary that the GG is firing so close to the baby, but he
sends the BG running. The video might be on http://www.trutv.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;,
but I don't have time to search it.

SIA

SIA

I think this might be it. I hope this is an allowed source for links to videos.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea ... oid=558545

T.

[karder]

If I were in the situation you are describing, I would most likely draw. As others noted, maybe the guy in the mask is just cold. If there is an ice storm going on, and a guy casually walks in wearing a ski mask, I probably would not think it too out of place. As a motorcycle rider, I often wear a mask in cold weather, but I always remove it before entering a business so as not to alarm. I think if a guy comes into your hotel, masked in the middle of the night, you have a problem. I would draw. Perhaps not level the gun at him, and definitely not pop off a round without provocation, but as dragonfighter said, if you wait to see a gun, it will probably be too late.

[Oldgringo]

I just had a couple of skin cancers removed from my nose (that hurts) and the surgery required some 18 stitches. For a short while after the surgery, I was bandaged to the point that one might think that I was wearing a mask.

As I said, the anesthetic hurt like the dickens, do I have to get shot too?