Travel to Philly PA?

[blackdog8200]

I will be headed to Philly in June. Do they have any oddities like Texas laws: IE 3006 or restaurants that serve alcohol....no carry at the liberty bell or Independence hall etc? I really want to carry but will doing the tourist stuff have me running into metal detectors etc. I see where at the court houses they have lockers for CHL use.

I just looked up Independence Hall and it is part of the National Parks. I wonder if since my CHL is good in PA, will it be allowed in the "Park?"

I know they honor the Texas CHL, I am looking for the tourist guide side. I don't want to get in trouble doing something that is OK here but not there. I have looked at the states website but it leaves alot unsaid.

Thanks for any help.

[BobCat]

http://handgunlaw.us/states/pennsylvania.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has a list of off-limits places:

· Court Houses
· Elementary and Secondary Education Schools
Title 18 Section 913 Possession of firearm or other dangerous weapon in court facility.
<snip>
Title 18 § 912 Possession of weapon on school property.
<snip>
§ 465.14. Firearms; Possession With In A Licensed Facility. (Casinos)
<snip>
Per Capitol Police: No weapons, firearms, explosives, knives, mace, pepper spray, or hazardous materials
allowed in the Capitol Complex. The Capitol Complex consists of the capitol and associated buildings and
grounds.

it is a start, anyway.

Also note that there is some law regarding specific a city or cities, making it illegal to carry there - a lot like NYC versus state, I think. I did not find it and could be wrong, but be careful and see what else you can find.

[blackdog8200]

Here are some of the links and answers I have from the http://forum.pafoa.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; :



http://paopencarry.org/pdfs/Pennsylvania_Gun_Rights.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"You can now carry in National Parks BUT not in Federal facilities, ie buildings with Federal employees. Thus Independence Hall, Liberty Bell Pavillion, etc are off limits by Federal law (18 USC 930). You will see the necessary prohibition sign required by Federal law before entering a Federal facility.

In Pa private property owners only have to post a sign likely to come to your attention. There is no definitive specification as to how big or in what form (picture vs. wording) like you have in TX. From experience I can tell you that they are few and far between except that most malls do have it posted in the fine print for conditions of entry. If discovered at worst its a violation of the trespass law (summary offense), usually you're just asked to leave.

You can carry in Pa where alcohol is served, even in plain old bars."

Also:
NOTE: THIS LISTING MAY BE PARTIAL, POSSIBLY MISSING LOCATIONS THAT ARE OFF-LIMITS BY LAW OR REGULATION. THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE, FOR THAT CONTACT AN ATTORNEY. THIS WEBSITE AND ITS MEMBERS ASSUMES NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR MISSING OR FAILING TO LIST AN OFF-LIMITS PLACE. WE DO THIS AS A PUBLIC SERVICE TO ASSIST THOSE WHO WISH TO LAWFULLY CARRY. IF YOU KNOW OF ANY PLACES OFF-LIMITS BY LAW OR REGULATION THAT WE FAILED TO LIST, PLEASE POST THEM IN THIS THREAD WITH A COPY OF THE LEGAL TEXT.


It is often asked where is it legal or illegal to carry in PA. Below is a guide to where and how you can lawfully carry.

The purpose of a PA LTCF issued under 6109 is to provide an exemption to the prohibition of carrying concealed on or abouts one's person, or in a vehicle, under 6106. It also allows you to carry any type of firearm(long guns and handguns) during a state of emergency. The license also provides for the privilege of carrying openly or concealed on the streets in a City of the First Class(Philly).

Off-limits places in PA and what makes them off-limits:
1. Court Facilities - PA Title 18, Chapter 9, Subsection 913
2a.*Grounds and buildings of Elementary and Secondary schools(K-12 grades), whether the school is private or public. There is an affirmative defense for "other lawful purposes" however there is no case law determining on what that includes. To be safe, its wiser to assume it does not include our carrying "rights". - PA Title 18, Chapter 9, Subsection 912
2b. Within 1000ft of a school unless you have a license/permit issued by the state in which the school is located - US Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, Subsection 922(q)
3. Casinos - by regulation Title 58, Part VII, Chapter 465, Subsection 465a.13
4. Certain Department of State buildings - by regulation
5. ****Places off-limits by Federal Law or regulation, IE: military installations(exceptions for hunting at some bases), Federal Government buildings, after the security check point in airports,etc.
6. Any private property where a landowner, tenant or person so authorized to maintain property has asked you to leave because you are carrying, or where the property owner or tenant has placed signs or placards denoting that guns are forbidden - Title 18, Chapter 35, Subsection 3503
7. Detention facilities, correctional institutes, or mental hospitals - Title 18, Chapter 51, Subsection 5122 (READ FIRST: Where you CAN and CANNOT Carry weapons in the State of Pennsylvania)

If you do not see the place in question in the list above - then its NOT off-limits in Pennsylvania. Yes, you may legally carry in a bar, tavern, club, or church in PA.

Off-limits places apply just the same for open as they do concealed, except State Parks require the carrier to conceal and to be licensed.

*Colleges are not prohibited by law, however the college could levy their own infractions like expelling the person or other civil punishments.
****The Federal Parks and Reserves are legal again. New law went into effect 02/22/10. Federal buildings in Fed. Parks and Reserves are still off-limits. While in a Federal Park, you follow the laws of the state in which it is located.

Adobe Acrobat Reader

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Vehicles:
Openly or concealed does NOT matter to vehicles, nor does its loaded or unloaded status, only the fact that there is a "firearm"(handgun, SBS, SBR) in, on, or upon a vehicle. Any device that is used to transport people is a vehicle. Yes, that includes horses, bicycles, motorcycles, boats, trains, airplanes, cars, trucks, trolleys, etc, etc. YOU NEED A LICENSE TO TRANSPORT A HANDGUN IN, ON, OR UPON A VEHICLE UNLESS YOU ARE GOING TO/FROM ONE OF THE EXEMPTED LOCATIONS IN 18.61.6106.(B).

Before you ask, long guns cannot be carried or transported loaded in a vehicle - whether you are licensed or not.

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Private Properties, land owner and tenant rights prevail above all:
1. If the land/facility isn't owned by a municipality, township, county, state or fed government - then it is private property. In fact, even many properties maintained by a municipality of any level in PA is still private property - but the municipality has a lease or right-of-way. Most parcels are surveyed from the center of the road in front of your land or another common marker as a starting point.
2. Malls, stores, movie theaters, restaurants, bars, etc are private property - they may ask you to leave if you are carrying a firearm, or the may ask you to leave if you aren't carrying a gun, they may ask you to leave because you weren't wearing a pink tutu with a tactical thigh holster, they may ask you to leave for ANY reason and you must comply.
3. Just because persons may come and go in a place as they please, doesn't make it "public" property. What makes property "public" or "private" is whether the land/real-estate is owned by an individual/company/corporation(private) or by the people as a whole(public).
4. Unless you have an Allodial Title, you do not own your land - you lease it from the government by means of property taxes and hold rights by a deed, which is "color of title", not true title and patent of lands and real properties. The oldest 14 or 15 States are patent holders for their lands within. The federal government is patent holder for the remainings states and territories, except for properties sold out of Federal management(BLM of Dept Interior) and for titles & patents to some properties that were in place issued by another country prior to the land becoming a state.
5. To sum things up, your land is actually public property that is leased by means of taxes in the Fee Simple/Feudal Title system allowing you to claim it as private(Color of Title). The government then requires right-of-ways from you for roads or other easements. Landowners and tenants may deny carrying on their properties, which you should respect if you care for others to respect your property rights.

Drawing to help you understand property lines and Right-of-Way's.
http://forum.pafoa.org/attachment.ph...7&d=1229536698" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No Guns types signs on private property: delinquentes caveo
These type of signs lack a direct violation to places being off-limits. However they do set a conditional permission to be on the property. Violation of that condition is trespassing instantly. Such signs serve as first notice to a summary trespassing violation and you can be cited without a verbal warning. Now we all like to carry where ever we can, but we also want our property rights to be held in sanctity, to have our own land and building sanctity we must honor other's property rights as well. This is NOT legal advice or a tip to circumvent the law, but if you have a compelling need to carry on private property so marked - keep it CONCEALED and dont draw attention to yourself. If founded to be carrying you can be cited on the spot for a summary offense. Which to follow that you will most likely be asked to leave, if you fail to do so you will be arrested on a misdemeanor offense.

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Open carry:
If you can own a firearm, you may lawfully openly carry it on foot without a license. Except in a City of the First Class(1 million residents), you are required to have a license. Philly is the ONLY First Class city in PA, the next largest city, Pittsburgh, is about 550,000 residents away from being one.

You also need a LTCF to open carry in a vehicle, and to carry any gun during a declared state of emergency.

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Ages to purchase or own a firearm:

Handguns, Pistols, Revolvers:
1. 21 to buy one from a FFL
2a. 18 if given or purchasing one from a spouse, parent or grandparent. No paperwork necessary
2b. 18 if given or purchasing from any other person who lawfully owns the handgun, BUT it must be transfered through a SHERIFF. FFL's can only use the instant background check for firearms that they have listed in their bound books - and for you to receive it from the FFL you must be 21. Since Sheriffs aren't required to do such - they may use the instant check required by PA law to do the transfer.**

Rifles and Shotguns:
1. 18 to buy from a FFL.


**See ATF Open Letter Below:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/122905pe...openletter.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground in PA:

Castle Doctrine - one's home(and place of work in PA): PA does have probably 90% of full blown Castle Doctrine as coded statute, and practices it in common law. You have no duty to retreat from your home or place of work, unless you were the initial aggressor and/or the other person has a lawful right to be there as well. The only thing that PA lacks with true "Castle Doctrine" is the assumption that the person unlawfully entering your home is doing so to do harm. You must believe that you are at immediate risk of serious bodily injury, death, rape or kidnapping before using deadly force. However, there is a provision under the Protection of Property section of law to stop unlawful entries if a felony is committed within a dwelling. And also a PA Supreme Court ruling stating deadly force may be used if all attempts to effect an arrest for a forcible type felony fail(Commonwealth v. Chermansky 1968, reaffirmed in Kopko v. Miller 2005).

Stand Your Ground - anywhere else in PA: PA lacks this type of provision allowing you to meet force with force anywhere. However, PA does grant one's place of work as a extension to the Castle Doctrine. Any place else you must retreat if you can do so "in complete safety" before using force. If you cannot retreat with complete safety, or are faced with immediate deadly force, risk of serious bodily injury, rape, or kidnapping - you may use deadly force to protect yourself.

Protection of Others: You may use force to protect another if they are in the same situation as you would be required to be in before using deadly force as described in the Stand Your Ground section above. Sort of a "in their shoes" type provision.

Civil Liabilities: This is usually added on with "Stand Your Ground" provisions. PA lacks such protections in our laws and you may face civil lawsuits even if the use of force is justified.


I guess I have answered my own questions but thought I would post for the forum :)

[BobCat]

Hey, thanks for posting it all! Very interesting read, and good to clarify the part about "City of the First Class" and how that is special. Recalled something - but not that you can open carry w/o a license, except in a City of the First Class, for which you need a license - that's what I understand from the post, please correct me if I misunderstood.

[blackdog8200]

Hey, thanks for posting it all! Very interesting read, and good to clarify the part about "City of the First Class" and how that is special. Recalled something - but not that you can open carry w/o a license, except in a City of the First Class, for which you need a license - that's what I understand from the post, please correct me if I misunderstood.

PA really doesn't have a specific CHL like we do in Texas... Once you get your LTCF, which is much easier to get than our CHL, it gives you the right to carry loaded and openly or concealed. They are an open carry state...the LTCF expands their rights.

PA recoginzes our CHL.....However:

The members that I talked to thought it best to conceal and avoid LEO encounters....PA Law Enforcement might be unfamiliar with our CHL and give you a hard time even when nothing was done wrong. You'd be ok in the end but might spend time explaining yourself....

My plan is to keep a low profile and stay concealed. If my shirt rides up or my jacket blows open, stay cool and don't worry about it.

[BobCat]

Excellent! No harder to conceal there than here, and the consequences of "printing" (or the wind blowing your jacket up, as you say) are less.

While waiting for my Texas CHL renewal, I downloaded the form to get a PA non-resident license in case the DPS was late - this was a year or so ago, when the waits were bad. Now I'm sort of sorry I didn't go ahead and send it in.

Thanks for the info!

Regards,
Andrew

[gmckinl]

Went to see the Liberty Bell, Independence Hall, etc. about 3 years ago. Had to go thru metal detectors at one point. The guy had to call over a supervisor because of the Swiss Army knife I had. The supervisor looked at it then told me to just put it in my pocket and leave it there. They then let me proceed.