Does a gun grab constitute use of lethal force?

age_ranger · Post by **age_ranger** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:04 am

God fobid, but say you're out with the family and someone should see that pistol print on a windy day. Lets say the BG makes a grab for it. Now, are you justified to use lethal force with a knife or BUG or would that only be if BG actually manages to get your weapon from you?

Roger Howard · Post by **Roger Howard** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:37 am

I would say if a BG were going for MY GUN. I would have to be judged by 12 because I will do what ever it takes to keep it out of the BG's hands.

I would think that the amount of force necessary to neutralize this situation would be what is called for. I would'nt be going for another weapon though. I would fight to keep the one said BG was going after.

MoJo · Post by **MoJo** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:03 am

Roger Howard wrote: . . . I wouldn't be going for another weapon though. I would fight to keep the one said BG was going after.

AMEN!!! never let your gun fall into the hands of an assailant - - - you'll get shot!!!!

age_ranger · Post by **age_ranger** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:34 am

That's kind of what I was thinking, but lets say you prevent BG from grabbing it.......then what? Draw and retreat? Call the police and get ready to draw only to have the BG tell the police he saw your weapon and then you get in trouble for brandishing or possibly worse.....he says you pointed it at him?

I know it's a bunch of "what if?" but ............

dihappy · Post by **dihappy** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:05 am

Forget that! Im not taking any chance that BG is going to wrestle it from me or not, im going for BUG and hope he backs off, if not, ill make him.

Imagine having to go for BUG "after" you have determined that you cant hang onto your weapon, or you realize that hes pulling it free. If you decide to go for your BUG by then, well, your a day late and a dollar short.

cyphur · Post by **cyphur** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:34 am

My opinion is you should keep your BUG in reach of your weak hand, because in most cases that I can think of needing it, my strong hand is being used in CQB or doing something else. In this case, I could be using my strong hand to try to fend off the BG and use the weak hand to draw on them and end the situation.

Use of deadly force here, in my opinion, is more than justified in that if the BG gets your weapon, it is reasonable to presume they will use it on you. That is a direct imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death of your person, and thats the clearest justification for deadly force I can think of, but IANAL.

jimlongley · Post by **jimlongley** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:47 am

The way I see it, there is only one reason for someone to try to grab your, ostensibly concealed, gun away from you, and that is threat enough for me to consider using deadly force to prevent such a removal.

txinvestigator · Post by **txinvestigator** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:56 am

Let me tell you something my LE brethren and cousins can tell you as fact. Handgun retention is difficult at best. If someone makes a grab for your gun you are in a life and death fight. It all has to be on. Throw out any thoughts of non-lethal force, worry about courts or anything else.

The only way to survive an attempted gun grab is to destroy the attacker. I mean if you get your second gun or not. I will also say that most of your energy and focus will be towards not losing possession of your main handgun. Think retention straps/buttons are stupid now?

You do not stop until the person is running away, totally disengages or is on the ground incapacitated.

You must know that if the attacker gets your gun you will be shot.

I pray no one here ever has to face this scenario.

kw5kw · Post by **kw5kw** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:14 am

cyphur wrote:My opinion is you should keep your BUG in reach of your weak hand, because in most cases that I can think of needing it, my strong hand is being used in CQB or doing something else. In this case, I could be using my strong hand to try to fend off the BG and use the weak hand to draw on them and end the situation.

Use of deadly force here, in my opinion, is more than justified in that if the BG gets your weapon, it is reasonable to presume they will use it on you. That is a direct imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death of your person, and thats the clearest justification for deadly force I can think of, but IANAL.

What is CQB?

jbirds1210 · Post by **jbirds1210** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:22 am

txinvestigator wrote: The only way to survive an attempted gun grab is to destroy the attacker.

I was trained exactly the same way. The Texas prison system offers some horrible firearms training....but their retention training and drills are excellent.

The drills always end with a COM shot while attempting to create a space between you and the attacker. Hard to imagine another way to deal with someone that is clearly trying to kill you with your own weapon.
Jason

txinvestigator · Post by **txinvestigator** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:23 am

kw5kw wrote:
cyphur wrote:My opinion is you should keep your BUG in reach of your weak hand, because in most cases that I can think of needing it, my strong hand is being used in CQB or doing something else. In this case, I could be using my strong hand to try to fend off the BG and use the weak hand to draw on them and end the situation.

Use of deadly force here, in my opinion, is more than justified in that if the BG gets your weapon, it is reasonable to presume they will use it on you. That is a direct imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death of your person, and thats the clearest justification for deadly force I can think of, but IANAL.
What is CQB?

Close Quarters Battle

Post by **Charles L. Cotton** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:24 am

txinvestigator wrote:Let me tell you something my LE brethren and cousins can tell you as fact. Handgun retention is difficult at best. If someone makes a grab for your gun you are in a life and death fight. It all has to be on. Throw out any thoughts of non-lethal force, worry about courts or anything else.

The only way to survive an attempted gun grab is to destroy the attacker. I mean if you get your second gun or not. I will also say that most of your energy and focus will be towards not losing possession of your main handgun. Think retention straps/buttons are stupid now?

You do not stop until the person is running away, totally disengages or is on the ground incapacitated.

You must know that if the attacker gets your gun you will be shot.

I pray no one here ever has to face this scenario.

oilman · Post by **oilman** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:59 am

jbirds1210 wrote:
txinvestigator wrote: The only way to survive an attempted gun grab is to destroy the attacker.

I was trained exactly the same way. The Texas prison system offers some horrible firearms training....but their retention training and drills are excellent.

The drills always end with a COM shot while attempting to create a space between you and the attacker. Hard to imagine another way to deal with someone that is clearly trying to kill you with your own weapon.
Jason

I hope this does not hijack this thread....but does anyone teach retention skills locally (Houston). Any recommended books/videos on this?

ElGato · Post by **ElGato** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:21 pm

Stat's from the DPS class were 1 of every 6 LEO killed in the line of duty with firearm's was killed with his own weapon.

Paladin · Post by **Paladin** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:46 pm

oilman wrote: I hope this does not hijack this thread....but does anyone teach retention skills locally (Houston). Any recommended books/videos on this?

Suarez's "Tactical Advantage" discusses the topic.

If the BG's are within reach you should keep your gun at the "close contact" or "retention" position

And don't stick your gun around a corner. Give yourself some distance from corners. I see people mess this up all the time in training.

As I conceal carry, I don't worry about retention straps. If the BG's don't know your gun is there, they won't even think about making a grab for it.