Texas Concealment

[VanZan]

I have a question to pose for the CHL experts out there, and would even like some opinions from CHL holders.

A man walks into a sporting goods store with a large visible bulge in the side of his shirt and a pistol leash hanging out the bottom. He approaches an employee near the front door and says, "I have a gun". After some inquiring he reveals that he has a CHL and just wanted to tell someone so that the employees would not think the bulge meant he was stealing something.

Since he verbally revealed that he is carrying, is that gun still "concealed"? As the manager, do you feel that I have the right to ask him to leave his pistol in the car while he shops, since he revealed its existence and made a couple of my employees uncomfortable?

Thanks for any input.

[RPB]

and just wanted to tell someone so that the employees would not think the bulge meant he had a colostomy bag or urine bag?

Sorry; someone else might give an answer to this theoretical imagined CHL who must not be real bright.

is that gun still "concealed"? As the manager, do you feel that I have the right to ask him to leave his pistol in the car while he shops, since he revealed its existence and made a couple of my employees uncomfortable?

I say it's still concealed by definition.
According to the Texas Department of Public Safety, “‘Concealed’ means that the weapon cannot be visible, and that its presence cannot be discernible through ordinary observation.”
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administra ... hlfaqs.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

48: What does concealed mean? Can I carry my handgun in plain view?
No. The weapon can't be visible, and its presence can't be discernible through ordinary observation.

(my "feelings" about "your rights" are irrelevant)
You have the right to ask him to not spend his money there because his shoes are the wrong color or you don't like his haircut if you want to; and I'm sure he'd leave and take his money elsewhere. You don't have a right to discriminate based on certain things such as race, religion, national origin, etc etc etc ...
but otherwise, lose all the business you want.
And, he'll tell 2 friends, and they'll tell two friends and so on and so on ...


Edited: I didn't notice it was a "sporting goods store"
I think in some State they were trying to pass a law to force people to bring in their guns when buying ammo ...

[MoJo]

First. Concealed is concealed telling someone is failure to conceal. Second. No one I've trained would do this based on the things I teach in class. Third, why would the store manager/owner tell the customer to leave.

If the bulge is that obvious tell the store people it's a medical appliance, (lead injector.) ;>)

[WildBill]

I have a question to pose for the CHL experts out there, and would even like some opinions from CHL holders.

A man walks into a sporting goods store with a large visible bulge in the side of his shirt and a pistol leash hanging out the bottom. He approaches an employee near the front door and says, "I have a gun". After some inquiring he reveals that he has a CHL and just wanted to tell someone so that the employees would not think the bulge meant he was stealing something.

Since he verbally revealed that he is carrying, is that gun still "concealed"? As the manager, do you feel that I have the right to ask him to leave his pistol in the car while he shops, since he revealed its existence and made a couple of my employees uncomfortable?

Thanks for any input.

I am not certain what a pistol leash is, but I will attempt to answer your questions.

IMO, it is still concealed even though he said he had a gun. I think the guy would be foolish to announce that he is carrying, but if you are the manager of the store you have the right to ask him to leave his gun in the car. However, if you are in a sporting goods shop, I wouldn't think the employees would be nervous about a CHL carrying a gun.

[Mike1951]

and just wanted to tell someone so that the employees would not think the bulge meant he had a colostomy bag or urine bag?

Sorry; someone else might give an answer to this theoretical imagined CHL who must not be real bright.

And whose concealment method is obviously lacking.

[WildBill]

BTW - VanZan - Welcome to the forum.

[Thomas]

I hate it when I'm in a position where it looks like I could be stealing. That said, I would never tell someone I had a gun. In your scenario, you are assuming that the employee that you tell, or any one else that employee tells doesn't care that you have a gun. That will not always be the case. My suggestion, don't do anything suspicious, and the thought that you're stealing will never cross their minds.

Since he verbally revealed that he is carrying, is that gun still "concealed"?
- To answer that question, I offhand do not know.

As the manager, do you feel that I have the right to ask him to leave his pistol in the car while he shops
- 99.999% of the time, you have the right to ask whatever you want. I'm not a lawyer or have much legal experience, but the only problem you might run into is if you tell him to leave.

he revealed its existence and made a couple of my employees uncomfortable?
- As the manager, you might want to calmly walk up to him and explain if you have the license to conceal carry, that you should keep its presence concealed. You never know who talks to who, and sharing that information with someone with ill intentions could cause problems. Also say, while I respect your rights to conceal carry with a license, some of my employees are not comfortable with knowing about it, so on their behalf, I would ask that you not conceal carry in the future.

(Yes, I am not fond of the idea of businesses saying that guns are not permitted, but I am approaching this from this person's perspective and situation.)

Anyway, welcome to the forum

[RPB]

DPS site:

What does concealed mean?
The weapon can't be visible, and its presence can't be discernible through ordinary observation.

What if ,,,, the bulge at his waist WAS a urine bag, and the gun was in an ankle/shoulder holster?

Verbally/oral statement of "I have a gun" does not mean THAT bulge IS the gun.

Unless the GUN is discernible through ordinary observation ... the bulge could be anything.
That's why I say; it's still concealed by definition; no crime was committed, except for being stupid and announcing he's armed.

That's my layman's opinion; worth every penny you paid me for it.


But, yeah, ask me to leave and I certainly would ... a defense exists to 30.05 if it's due to a CHL/gun ... but kick me out for a bad haircut might be better; I don't go where they don't want my money for whatever reason.

Trespassing
30.05
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:

(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and

(2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category the person was carrying.

Kick me out for a bad haircut and if I don't leave; arrest me for trespassing .... but I'd be gone ...

[A-R]

But, yeah, ask me to leave and I certainly would ... a defense exists to 30.05 if it's due to a CHL/gun ... but kick me out for a bad haircut might be better; I don't go where they don't want my money for whatever reason.

Trespassing
30.05
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:

(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and

(2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category the person was carrying.

Kick me out for a bad haircut and if I don't leave; arrest me for trespassing .... but I'd be gone ...

As always, I AM NOT A LAWYER. This is NOT legal advice.

PC 30.05 is not the relevant law here. If a store manager (obviously "someone with apparent authority to act for the owner") tells you to leave because of a gun and you fail to do so, that is a clear violation of PC 30.06. You have received "notice" orally and failed to depart. The limitations in 30.05 don't matter because the "notice" standard in 30.06 has been met.

As for whether saying you have a gun is illegally unconcealing? I don't know that there is any case law on that, but it's certainly not something I would do and like Mojo I train my students not to do so.

Since the OP, who I assume is the store manager in question, seems unnerved enough by the encounter to write to us about it and contemplated asking the fella to leave, I'd be concerned about other potential technical violations of law. Beyond failure to conceal, I'd also be concerned that revealing you have a concealed gun could be construed as a threat of some kind. One of the LEOs or lawyers on the board can better answer what other law this may technically violate and whether a DA would pursue charges against such a thing (likely one of those gray areas that depends greatly on the particular leanings of the particular LEO, DA, etc. and how hard the store owner wishes to push pursuing some sort of charge.

[RoyGBiv]

IMHO, if he's too incompetent to properly conceal, he should not have a license. If the gun is carried in such a way that the permit-holder feels the need to proactively tell the public he has a license for it, then it's not properly concealed and, IN MY OPINION carrying in such a manner would constitute an intentional failure to conceal.

..... "I know this gun is not well concealed, so, I'm going to tell you that I have it and that you don't need to worry because I have a license to carry it...."

Sorry.... that's not concealed carry. Intentionally.

PC §46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

[RPB]

But, yeah, ask me to leave and I certainly would ... a defense exists to 30.05 if it's due to a CHL/gun ... but kick me out for a bad haircut might be better; I don't go where they don't want my money for whatever reason.

Trespassing
30.05
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:

(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and

(2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category the person was carrying.

Kick me out for a bad haircut and if I don't leave; arrest me for trespassing .... but I'd be gone ...

As always, I AM NOT A LAWYER. This is NOT legal advice.

PC 30.05 is not the relevant law here. If a store manager (obviously "someone with apparent authority to act for the owner") tells you to leave because of a gun and you fail to do so, that is a clear violation of PC 30.06. You have received "notice" orally and failed to depart. The limitations in 30.05 don't matter because the "notice" standard in 30.06 has been met.

As for whether saying you have a gun is illegally unconcealing? I don't know that there is any case law on that, but it's certainly not something I would do and like Mojo I train my students not to do so.

Since the OP, who I assume is the store manager in question, seems unnerved enough by the encounter to write to us about it and contemplated asking the fella to leave, I'd be concerned about other potential technical violations of law. Beyond failure to conceal, I'd also be concerned that revealing you have a concealed gun could be construed as a threat of some kind. One of the LEOs or lawyers on the board can better answer what other law this may technically violate and whether a DA would pursue charges against such a thing (likely one of those gray areas that depends greatly on the particular leanings of the particular LEO, DA, etc. and how hard the store owner wishes to push pursuing some sort of charge.

I just got distracted before getting to 30.06; but a business owner would lose less business kicking me out for a bad haircut than for being armed because I know more people with CHLs than with bad haircuts and I tend to inform others of experiences I had.

Haircut 30.05
law abiding citizen with license and Handgun 30.06

his choice.
Just depends how many customers he wants to lose.

[Jasonw560]

A man walks into a sporting goods store with a large visible bulge in the side of his shirt and a pistol leash hanging out the bottom. He approaches an employee near the front door and says, "I have a gun".

how big of a gun do you need, first of all?

second, how come you have a pistol leash? if you tend to drop your Desert Eagle .50 that often, I'd consider not carrying or getting something a little smaller.

Just sayin'...

[JJVP]

I have a question to pose for the CHL experts out there, and would even like some opinions from CHL holders.

A man walks into a sporting goods store with a large visible bulge in the side of his shirt and a pistol leash hanging out the bottom. He approaches an employee near the front door and says, "I have a gun". After some inquiring he reveals that he has a CHL and just wanted to tell someone so that the employees would not think the bulge meant he was stealing something.

Since he verbally revealed that he is carrying, is that gun still "concealed"? As the manager, do you feel that I have the right to ask him to leave his pistol in the car while he shops, since he revealed its existence and made a couple of my employees uncomfortable?

Thanks for any input.

I would NEVER under any circumstances tell ANYONE "I have a gun" unless I was a BG and was trying to rob the place. If I needed to reveal that I was carrying, I would say, "I have a CHL and I am carrying". Saying "I have a gun" is a good way of getting yourself arrested if not shot.

[RPB]

I intentionally keep SEVERAL things which create bulges all around my belt line.
I don't shoplift.
I don't feel I need to say "I have a wad of Kleenexes, a cell phone, a knife in a sheath on my belt, a little thing full of candy and cough drops, a Walkman/MP3 player..."

[gigag04]

You asked my opinion so I'll include it free.

You can ask anyone to leave your store. You can ask him to leave his big scary gun in his car.


However, if I was the regional mgr and found out one of my sporting good stores had such a culture, things would get ugly. Law abiding gun owners are a target segment for that industry. They are also very good about sharing their offense online (just poke around this board) and helping you develop a poor reputation. My advice is to allow your employees to carry with a CHL