Carrying at school?

[mschadt]

All right now that I've got your attention let me explain.

I have a CHL and I attend a state junior college. I know CHL law says I can’t carry on the premise of a school (i.e. building). But I live in an on campus apartment that is on campus but owned and operated by a national college housing company. As I understand it, the apartment is owned by the private company, the land under it is owned by the state, and the school is allowed to use the property as long as they maintain certain education programs.

Now for the question, However I’m afraid I already know the answer.

Can I have my gun with me in the apartment and in my truck when going off campus? I have no desire to carry in class, the only part of campus that scares me is the parking lots (there have been a few hold ups this year, and someone was murdered in the apartments a year ago), and the area in general can be a scary place, particularly around the college campuses. I would also like to have it on the weekends when I drive into Houston. If the answer is heck NO, as I suspect it will be, could I install a safe in my truck and keep the gun in there, and how would HB 823 effect that after it goes into effect? I think that’s going to be my ultimate answer but the last thing I want is my truck stolen/broken into and know there a bad guy out there with my truck and a loaded gun.

[Chris]

the place where i would go to get my information is the police department that has jurisdiction over where you live. if there is a university police department, ask them. they'll be the ones arresting you if you do something wrong. get the name or card of whomever you talk to.

to get permission to carry a gun on school property, it would have to be approved by the board of directors or some big monster process. they won't do that, but if the police tell you they'll overlook you having it in your car or something like that, then i wouldn't sweat it too much, just be sure you know who you talked to.

[mschadt]

I was really just hoping there would be enough distinction between private building on top of school property and school building, but even I think that grey area is too dark.

The campus "Pubic Safety" department is an out right joke, sorry to say that about any law enforcement agency, but it's true. When not righting parking tickets they ignore complaints by saying "Well this is a college campus and boys will be boys, after all.", although I suppose I should give them some credit for cleaning the rabbit carcass off my neighbors door step after my “follow up� complaint.

I may try an e-mail to the campus president and/or the campus Chief of Public Safety and get a feel for their reaction.

[Chris]

I may try an e-mail to the campus president and/or the campus Chief of Public Safety and get a feel for their reaction.

if you're not going to a face to face, don't even waste the time. i'll tell you what they're going to reply in an email. NO!

[Charles L. Cotton]

mschadt:
This is an interesting question; one I've never seen asked before and that's hard to do! Having your handgun in your truck is fine with a CHL, and without a CHL if HB823 is not vetoed by the Governor (it won't be).

The distinction of privately owned housing on the property of a state owned educational institution makes this a tough question to answer. Government ownership or leasing (as lessee, not lessor) of real property is a controlling factor for purposes of 30.06 (trespass by a CHL), but not when dealing with Section 46.03(a)(1) that prohibits the carrying of guns on the "premises" of schools. In my opinion, the legislative intent is to keep people from carrying guns into the school buildings, including dorms. However, your situation may be different, then again it may not.

Do you pay the school, or a private company, for the housing costs? Does it include any meals provided by the school like dorm residents? I don't know that this would be controlling, but if the money goes to the school, I believe that would work against you.

This would be a great question on a law school final or the bar exam!

Regards,
Chas.

[mschadt]

The on campus housing options are normal dorms, school owned and operated apartment, duplex houses (for families), and the privately owned and operated apartments I'm in. My rent and utility checks are made out to my apartment complex, not the school. Meal plans and tuition as well as rent in an of the other housing options are billed through the school.

[stevie_d_64]

The on campus housing options are normal dorms, school owned and operated apartment, duplex houses (for families), and the privately owned and operated apartments I'm in. My rent and utility checks are made out to my apartment complex, not the school. Meal plans and tuition as well as rent in an of the other housing options are billed through the school.

There you have it...Your rent check and utilities are paid to the apartment complex owners...Not the school/college...

I agree with Charles that this would be a good situation to discuss with the controlling legal authority in this State...

My guess would be that they may try to exploit a violation of Section 46.03(a)(1), that while you are transiting from your apartment to your vehicle you may be in violation...But thats just speculation...Knowing how sometimes they go out of their way to make some portion of your day illegal...

But that's just my "Cynical Monday Morning" side talking...

[Charles L. Cotton]

mschadt:
Wow, you aren't making this any easier on me! Do you know who answers police calls to the apartments and/or the parking area for the apartments? It may be the same, or it may not. If the campus police would answer a call to an apartment, then it's clear they at least think they have jurisdiction; another point that would work against you.

The arrangement seems to be a bit unusual; i.e. school on state owned land, but only so long as they offer certain courses? I had presumed this was a "normal" state supported institution like U/T, U/H, Texas Tech., etc. where the land is owned by the school. This fact could also complicate the issue.

There is so much misunderstanding about the scope of various statutory provisions dealing with CHL's that I rarely suggest that anyone contact a law enforcement agency for an answer. Generally, if you happen to talk to someone who knows the law, then you're probably okay. LEO’s have to deal with virtually every aspect of the Penal Code, so they don’t have the time to focus on the statutes that effect CHL holders, and since CHL’s are such a law-abiding group, there is also no motivation. However, I'm not sure anyone has an answer to your question, so I agree with Chris that talking to the local police department (city, not campus) and/or DA's office might be the best option among poor ones. I hate to duck the issue, but unless there is a compelling reason for staying in those particular apartments, then you might want to consider moving to another complex off campus.

It's relatively rare that I can't even offer an educated guess on a legal issue dealing with CHL's, but I'm stumped on this one!

Regards,
Chas.

[mschadt]

One option would be to check in and out of our department. The problem with that option lies with you being able to get it, when you leave in a timely manner.

Although we have officers on duty 24 hours a day, we do not have an evidence officer available 24 hours a day. The evidence locker would be where your gun would need to be stored with documentation of checking it in and checking it out. We cannot make acceptions to any other officers having access to the evidence room other than the evidence officer, as it would completely destroy the credibility of chain of evidence which must must be protected for court puposes.

Other than that, the option of keeping it locked in your vehicle would be another acception. You could take it in and out of your residence (living in family housing) but not if living in the Dorm, on campus apartment or the Private apartments.
Guns and weapons of any kind are prohibited there by both the school and private entities. Also, while on campus you could not display or take the gun out for any reason. That is campus policy. In fact, I would discourage you from even telling others about it.

Other than what I have mentioned, we cannot give special permission of any kind for an individual to be in possession of a firearm on school premises (public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area).

Well I'm glad he's at least willing to work with me.

Chas I'll send you a PM with more details on the arangement between the school and Texas.

[mschadt]

Sorry, I forgot to answer your question about who patrols the apartments. The campus DPS does, they also handle all the crime reports. The Campus lies at the border of Waco and two very small suburbs which I think are both smaller than the campus geographically, I’ve never seen police from any of the other three accept when U-turning to head back to there patrols, or as added security for special events.

One of my former roommates lives in family housing, which allows guns according to the Chief here, and he just so happens to be looking for a roommate. I may do that or move off campus after my lease expires here. Until then I'll probably just leave it at home or install a safe in my truck. My only problem with that is vehicle theft/robbery is one the biggest problems on campus.

Reading back through the e-mail I noticed he sent his reply to all his staff from the Officers to the secretary and the operator, I’m not too sure if this is good or bad. As if “here I okayed this�, or “look out for this kid.� Before I risk the third degree felony I’ll have to have a face-to-face just to make sure I’m reading him right.

There’s also a TxDPS office down the road, could I talk to someone there? Or should I send a formal letter to someone and if so who?

Thanks for all the help

P.S. This is a wonderful forum if for nothing else than the legal advice.

[gigag04]

P.S. This is a wonderful forum if for nothing else than the legal advice.

Just make sure it all checks out! I like the quote "I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on the internet.

This forum is way better than many others with the "I think..." or "When I was there I remember..." advice you can get for sure.

I feel your pains (to some degree), I'm a student at Texas A&M, where this no carry law. Even on the busses. UPD (University police) informed me that I could leave it in my vehicle, even in a garage, and I could carry outside bldgs, but I couldn't go inside any bldgs (which they are correct).

They too were very helpful as your dept seems to be.

-nick

[Charles L. Cotton]

I feel your pains (to some degree), I'm a student at Texas A&M, where this no carry law. Even on the busses. UPD (University police) informed me that I could leave it in my vehicle, even in a garage, and I could carry outside bldgs, but I couldn't go inside any bldgs (which they are correct).

I wish I had a better feel for how many people are effected by the current state of the law regarding on-campus carry at universities. Perhaps this is something we should add to the TSRA 2007 Legislative Agenda. Mschadt raises an excellent point about the problem of on-campus car burglaries at many colleges and universities. This point could be used to counter the argument that the students can simply leave the guns in their cars.

The biggest problem changing this would be the legitimate concern many will have about guns in dorms. Animal House is going to be the first thing people think about, even if the movie was set in a frat. house rather than a dorm. I know some states allow guns on campus at colleges and universities, but this would be a hard sell in Austin. Let me scratch my head and visit with some folks on this one.

Regards,
Chas.

[dolanp]

I think it might be a worthwhile pursuit for the legislative agenda Chas. I have always felt that a campus can be a very dangerous place at night, and many people have night classes. Even during the day, things can happen. While I personally don't see a problem with carrying at any schools, I know the legislators in Austin probably aren't ready to buy that yet. I think we can introduce the idea of university/college carry first and run with that. They still have to meet CHL requirements so they are minimum 21 (probably Junior or Senior) and have clean backgrounds. I think you may hit a wall with allowing them to store weapons in dorm rooms due to the fact that theft is pretty trivial and the various other stigmas about college students, but at the very least students should be able to carry if licensed.

[mschadt]

Being in a dorm environment I for one wouldn't mind the requirement that it be stored in a secure way: small vault, safe, cable lock, trigger lock, etc. You have to remember even though the licensee is at least 21 and most likely mature, being on a college campus you are surrounded by idiots and immature kids. Not to mention you don’t always have the option of picking your roommates. For instance, what if a roommate has a felony on their record?

[gigag04]

I was in the corps of cadets here at A&M. I'm now doing my last non-reg years, (I'm squeezing four years of college into seven).

I wouldn't feel comfortable with a gun in my room. Not because of myself, but because of the non-stop craziness going on in corps dorms.

The only time we wished we could have long guns was during duck season (my roommate was DU officer).

A factor to consider is that you have 21 yr old college students in dorms. IF anyone that old is in a dorm, chances are they have friends that are close to age.

I like the locked idea.

Maybe it's because I'm looking at it from the paradigm of never being able to have my pistols in my dorm that I'm a little apprehensive.

If I could've all along and realized nothing bad would come of it, then I would be more for it maybe.

Just the thoughts of someone currently in the situation.

-nick