gun safes surviving fires

[10Shooter]

I and 2 other adults took a group of our church teens to Bastrop last Saturday to a relief center for the fire victims and overheard a conversation that peaked my interest. What I overheard was that there were multiple gun safes that were still standing after the houses were burned down but the contents were destroyed. Papers were burned up, coins were melted, guns were destroyed. I do not know the extent of "destroyed."
So I have sent an email to the Texas Forest Service for details about "How hot did the fires supposedly get"?
My interest is I have a "fire" gun safe and always thought I was protected, but am now having second thoughts. I spent a few months researching safes before I bought mine, but now am wondering.

Any opinions on safes surviving fires in the real world or other thoughts on this subject?

[Thomas]

An average forest fire will probably be about 1000 C to 1100 C burning only wood and dead brush. In a house with the addition of other hydrocarbon-based fuel sources (ex. plastics), it could get as high as 1500 C.

[ELB]

Safes can be designed and rated to be burglar-resistant, or fire-resistant, or both. Most lower-priced gun safes I have seen have gone the burglar-resistant routes only. The ones that are both tend to be pricey.

UL has separate ratings for burglar-resistance and fire-resistance. Fire-resistant safes are generally tested to protect paper, not guns or computer media. There is a separate rating for computer media, but not one for guns, AFAIK. I am pretty sure the ignition point for guns is well above paper, but I don't know about the "damage point" for wood and synthetic stocks.

A fire-rated safe has to maintain, in an external fire of a given temperature, an internal temperature below a certain level (which escapes me right now) for so many minutes without damage to the contents. This is often written as "XX00 degrees for 15 (or 30 or 60) minutes." Of course if the external fire exceeds the tested temp, or burns longer....

A fire-rated safe also has to survive a drop test, where the safe is heated to a certain temperature, then dropped 30 feet onto a pile of rubble (concrete and bricks). This is to simulate a safe on the second floor of a house falling into the basement during a fire.

Somewhere I ran across a warning to make sure that safes that claim to have fire-resistance actually have a statement that they PASSED the UL tests. Apparently some manufacturers have advertised their safes as "UL-tested," which was true, but leaving out the part that their safes did not PASS the test.

I would be curious as to how many of those safes in the Bastrop fires were actually tested, fire-rated safes, versus burglar-resistant safes or boxes that maybe had some inserted in the walls so they could be advertised as fire resistant.

[Thomas]

Somewhere I ran across a warning to make sure that safes that claim to have fire-resistance actually have a statement that they PASSED the UL tests. Apparently some manufacturers have advertised their safes as "UL-tested," which was true, but leaving out the part that their safes did not PASS the test.

Also use the same caution when you read or hear that something is "designed for" or "designed to" do something. Just because something is designed on a piece of paper or in someone's mind for something, doesn't mean it performs in the real world.

[cbunt1]

To give you a point of reference, the cash vault in most banks is rated for 30 minutes in a fire. I'm not talking about the walk-in variety here, but the teller vaults behind the line--the ones that are the size of a large gun safe.

The one (indirect) experience I've had with guns that survived a fire in a safe was a 1911 that a friend brought me...the steel survived, the polymer guns didnt...in fact we spent hours and hours buffing the polymers off the steel just so we could disassemble and sandblast.

FWIW, these belonged to a friend of a friend, and I was told that Insurance totalled all the guns in this case.

So, imho, a fire-rated safe will protect your guns from a kitchen fire, or similar, but maybe not from a fully-involved structure fire...your house will burn for several hours in most cases, and the weight and size of a safe that will fully protect from that is prohibitive.

All evidence to these facts is anecdotal, and just my opinion. I'm all for a safe, just like I'm all for locking your car door--just realize the limitations.

[Rex B]

I suspect placement of the safe in the structure is key. A safe in the central portion, where we might instinctively want it, may be the worst place in case of fire. The best place might be an outside wall or corner, in a single-story section where the fire would run out of fuel sooner.

[glbedd53]

My safe is fire lined but I never thought the guns would survive a fire. I have two so called "fireproof boxes" inside the safe for important papers and some other small stuff. I figured that double layer would help a little.

[Carry-a-Kimber]

You also have to consider that the average house fire doesn't burn uncontrolled for as long as some of the houses that were in the brush fire might have. What I mean is; if your house catches fire and you call the FD the fire will probably be extinguished rather quickly. If your house catches in a wildfire; its likely that other homes are burning and the house will burn longer and hotter. A typical house fire wont burn a home down to the slab but many that were caught in the wild fires did just that.

[Lefty]

With Carry-a-Kimber and would add that if you have to evacuate because of wildfire danger (or anything else), you might want to clean out your safe and take your "stuff" with you.

[TX0303]

All the items we call gun safes are actually classified as "residential security cabinets" by the U.L. The U.L. does not fire rate any residential security cabinets as they do real safes as it is not worth the effort. When a manufacturer states a U.L. fire listing, it is for the material used, not the fire rating of the whole product. Their burn times are either estimated or independently tested.
It would be good to know the brand of the safes they were talking about. I think like most people, the homeowners probably had a 12 gauge metal safe with sheetrock as the insulator.
I'm shopping for a safe and am seriously considering Sturdy brand for the fire insulation they use.

[10Shooter]

from the Texas Forest Service Gentleman I emailed:

"I am not an expert on gunsafes, but I do know from conversations with the firefighters that the Bastrop fire was an exception to most fires. The high winds and extreme drought conditions caused the area to burn quicker and hotter than most widlfires. I believe that in an average housefire, a gunsafe will protect the items inside. Many people had gun safes and safe boxes that did not survive the Bastrop fire.
FIA Forester"

[rm9792]

I have mine mounted in a detached garage for just this reason. The garage will burn down in minutes I assume, especially with all of the chemicals in there. The house could burn for a while. Mine claims 1680 deg for 90 minutes or so. Plenty of time.

[Mike1951]

There is a Houston dealer and good friend of mine, Safes R Us, who learned the hard way. Years ago, he sold several of the top brands. I don't recall which brand his personal safe was, but as a long time dealer, I'm confident it was one he thought highly off. He has a photo album in the sales office of his personal collection that was destroyed inside that safe when his home burned.

http://www.gunsafeshouston.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He now sells only Fort Knox and will not sell one without the higher rated fire door.

http://www.ftknox.com/redesign/advantag ... ection.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I also ordered the body upgrade to 1/4" steel.

Even one of these probably wouldn't have fared well in the wildfires, but I think it ups the odds during any lesser calamity.

Don't rule him out because he's in Houston. He installs safes statewide.

[OldCannon]

It's be more money efficient to build a below-ground concrete bunker. It might cost a little more, but you also have a nice hideaway for tornadoes, zombies, etc.

Just sayin.

Safes are made to keep things safe, but insurance is made for catastrophes. I'm not going to criticize people that want to buy great safes like Fort Knox brand, but it's important to maintain perspective on what you're protecting.

[rm9792]

I got mine from Safes R Us, great people there. I got the 6637 and have had no complaints. The installed it and bolted it down for $99 plus threw in a dozen of the velcro pistol holders for the door.