Criminals wearing body armor.... a trend?

[RoyGBiv]

This article got me thinking..
http://www.rrdailyherald.com/news/intru ... 963f4.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Are BG's wearing body armor regularly these days?
If I was a BG, I certainly would.

And the logical follow on question.....

Should head shots be preferred over COM to overcome the possibility body armor?

[olafpfj]

Should head shots be preferred over COM to overcome the possibility body armor?

I believe you are referring to a failure drill. 2 COM 1 head. Tap Tap...Tap.

The instructor for my basic combat class drilled this into our minds and muscles. He also had us do the reverse failure drill. 1 head, 2 com.

"5 steps forward, failure drill, GO!!!"....

[stroguy]

I will defer that question to Mr Bin Laden........Mr Bin, your answer please.............Yo Binster....................uh Ladenhomer...................is anyone holmes there MR Binsteragen?

[RoyGBiv]

Should head shots be preferred over COM to overcome the possibility body armor?

I believe you are referring to a failure drill. 2 COM 1 head. Tap Tap...Tap.

The instructor for my basic combat class drilled this into our minds and muscles. He also had us do the reverse failure drill. 1 head, 2 com.

"5 steps forward, failure drill, GO!!!"....

I've never seen (other than on TV ) anyone shot while wearing armor.
If a person of average size wearing armor is shot by, let's say, a .40 JHP at 10 feet, COM, will they be knocked down from the impact? Knocked off balance?

[OldCannon]

Body armor is not magic. It can stop most pistol rounds and (generally) no rifle rounds. However, the laws of physics STILL apply: You are being struck with a massive, concentrated force. You _will_ suffer pain and you _will_ likely see stars and get your breath knocked out. In the meantime, the shooter has time to maneuver and/or shoot at will. The real purpose of body armor (in the civilian world bad-guy-culture, mind you) is intimidation.

And if you think body armor protects you, you might want to talk to a Star Wars Stormtrooper first

[i8godzilla]

I recall seeing the carnage at the Bank of America Shoot-Out in North Hollywood. The BGs were shot multiple times and wearing body armor. I have no clue as to how many times they were hit in the body armor. However, any rounds that connected did not appear to have much, if any, effect on their subsequent actions.

There are various levels of body armor. In the North Hollywood incident, it was reported that the BGs were wearing military grade armor--I do not know what level of armor. The police were using .38 and 9MM in the initial response. The referenced article does not say what type of weapon or ammo was used or where the intruder was shot--head shot or femoral artery may not have been covered by the armor.

[RoyGBiv]

So... Seems like a hit on LE-type body armor would be felt enough to slow an attacker... Possibly like a hard punch.

What I'm taking away from this is, as olafpfj said in the first reply, "Failure Drill" is the best tactic.

I'd not specifically considered the tactics of the engagement with an attacker that may be wearing armor. Given that there's no way to know for certain at the outset of an engagement, it seems it would be dangerous to assume anything less than worst case.

I worry a bit about how the law/a jury would view this (Failure drill) tactic. Of course if you've made it to a jury, you're still alive.

Interesting... Thanks for the discussion.

[Derf]

I hesitate to share this, but I'll give a personal observation on the matter based on my time, formerly, as a LEO in DC.

When a person gets hit with a handgun round, they generally keep doing what they were doing before they were hit, unless the wound channel passes through a critical area (brain-pan, heart, etc...). I've personally seen a person who had a hollowpoint round pass clean through his aorta (based on autopsy) manage to run to his vehicle, while firing back, and then lead us on a 2 minute car chase in the city prior to passing out due to blood loss, and expiring shortly after. I've also seen folks fall over after being hit in the forearm. What I personally believe was a conditioned response based on what he had seen in movies. Maybe I'm wrong on the conditioning part. Who knows?

Body armor doesn't really change that. A couple of years before I left law enforcement and made the transition to IT, an officer I know well was struck high in the chest with a 124 gr, 9mm round while wearing a Point Blank vest, on duty. This officer was in a gunfight in a darkened alley, with a homicide suspect, at a range of about 40 feet following a short foot-chase. He didn't even realize he had been hit until another officer pointed it out to him a few minutes later, after he had moved into the light, and the impact was visible. Then he was in a great deal of pain, akin to being hit in the chest with a hammer, I believe the description was.

Adrenaline and focus can do some pretty incredible things for a person in a high-stress situation.

[speedsix]

...not likely that citizens should ever face a body-armor clad perp...but remember if you do, the groin and base of the neck are usually not covered by generic BA...either target will cause massive pain, and in the case of the pelvic area, can physiclally break him down...

[speedsix]

...DO NOT ANYONE do something as stupid as these two men did here...EVER...it violates every rule of safety and common sense that we have ever heard...if you think you are braver and smarter than our teachers, read this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6504820/ns/ ... -scrutiny/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and follow up on the settlement...only an idiot would either shoot another or agree to be shot to "test" a vest...

...I paid for one of the first Second Chance vests available in the 70s and was the first on my department to wear it...summer and winter...I pushed them and put up with the ridicule and jokes...discomfort and effort...but trusting my life to one for around 7 years doesn't mean time and chance couldn't happen to ME...

...to Richard's credit, he would only sell to law enforcement...he is sincere, devoted, and ethical...but that doesn't make him wise when doing this "demo" or the hundreds or thousands he's done since the 70s...I heard a RUMOR in the 80s that he actually got shot through one...I've never been able to verify or discredit it...it came from a LEO trainer...
...also, the vests that will stop a .44 Mag will not stop an ice pick or knife or other sharp puncturing object...unless you're wearing a solid plate inside the pocket...it's really a fascinating subject to study...

[RPB]

...DO NOT ANYONE do something as stupid as these two men did here...EVER...it violates every rule of safety and common sense that we have ever heard...if you think you are braver and smarter than our teachers, read this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6504820/ns/ ... -scrutiny/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and follow up on the settlement...only an idiot would either shoot another or agree to be shot to "test" a vest...

...I paid for one of the first Second Chance vests available in the 70s and was the first on my department to wear it...summer and winter...I pushed them and put up with the ridicule and jokes...discomfort and effort...but trusting my life to one for around 7 years doesn't mean time and chance couldn't happen to ME...

...to Richard's credit, he would only sell to law enforcement...he is sincere, devoted, and ethical...but that doesn't make him wise when doing this "demo" or the hundreds or thousands he's done since the 70s...I heard a RUMOR in the 80s that he actually got shot through one...I've never been able to verify or discredit it...it came from a LEO trainer...
...also, the vests that will stop a .44 Mag will not stop an ice pick or knife or other sharp puncturing object...unless you're wearing a solid plate inside the pocket...it's really a fascinating subject to study...

Youtube has a video "Bulletproof Vest - What an Idiot! Fail! " where a few teens decided to shoot one of their group who had a "bulletproof vest" ... and you have to have a youtube account and verify you are over 18 to watch the guy get shot and him remove the vest and hear the 911 call and see the entry hole in his chest, the last words were "We'll continue the video from the hospital" ... I'll not post a link to it
Any man made item can fail.
Officer Les Early, a certified Glock Armorer, Academy trainer ... friend I had, died while wearing body armor during a drug raid. http://www.odmp.org/officer/reflections ... -ian-early" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://ttpoa.org/organization/scholarship.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Les is one reason I still have an early Glock 19, and the papers showing the upgrades he did.

I studied body armors back in the 80s/90s and owned several brands and for an officer who refused to wear the 100 club issued vests, I purchased vests he said he would wear, (usually didn't but did more than the other) He was involved in 2 shootings, stubborn guy ... now works in a small town in central TX where no crimes occur... anyway there's a reason watches aren't "waterproof" but "water resistant" and why "body armor" isn't referred to as "bulletproof"

[smoothoperator]

Should head shots be preferred over COM to overcome the possibility body armor?

The possibility of body armor is one of the many reasons to go for the head shot if two COM hits don't stop the attack. Others reasons are drugs and really fat felons.

[Jumping Frog]

Seems to me that a lot of multi-assailant home invasions are not random.

The home owner has been charged: Home defender in federal custody

A Littleton man who shot and killed an intruder Wednesday night after four armed men broke into his home was taken into custody that same night and has since been turned over to federal authorities.

Maj. Bruce Temple, lead investigator for the Halifax County Sheriff's Office, said Rudolph Deandre Davis, 36, of Littleton, was taken into custody Wednesday night at the scene of the shooting...... While the search continues for two other suspects in the case, Temple said, Davis himself is in federal custody, facing charges related to cocaine distribution.

Seems to me if he was engaged in criminal enterprise, doesn't that take a good self defense case and remove the self defense justification? He was apparently committing a crime (engaged in cocaine distribution) when he shot and killed someone. Presumably, the home invasion occurred because there was the expectation of drugs, dirty money, and possibly illegal weapons to be stolen.

BTW, if you are under felony indictment, that makes a person automatically disqualified from possessing firearms and ammunition. I wonder how they'll deal with someone who apparently did not yet know they were indicted.

[jmorris]

On one of the blooper shows years ago they had one of a reporter who was demonstrating on camera how well a vest worked. It was one of the under shirt type vests, not the heavy duty one being worn above. Shot him with a .22. While he didn't go down, he was evidently expecting it to make him superman. He also didn't have the adrenaline rush to help. He definitely felt it. Much bleeping insured.