Thinking about getting an FFL

[TheRising]

Hello guys/gals,

I have my papers to send in to the ATF for an FFL. I have a few questions though:

1) How hard is it to actually get the FFL
2) How hard is it to get the FFL while living in an apartment
3) Knowing I live in an apartment, is it even worth the $200 no interest loan I'd be giving the ATF if they deny?

Thanks for the help guys/gals, I appreciate it!!

[CWOOD]

Are you wanting to start a firearms business or just want to be able to have your personal purchases sent to your house?

Be advised that the (Type 01) FFL is for business purposes...real business, not just a pretend business. Feds don't want every Tom, Dick, or Rising having a FFL for building their own personal collection...darn it.

The paperwork and record keeping can be cumbersome. You have to keep permanent records of every transaction of every firearm you have contact with.

Unless your interest is only in modern firearms, you might look at a C&R (Type 03)FFL. This is a non-business FFFL for Curios and Relics. For example, if you wanted an East German Makarov pistol, or a Yugo SKS rifle with grenade launcher and bayonet and a number of other interesting weapons, all for your own collection, this would be a viable option. And it is only $30. Your are limited to weapons who are demonstrably over 50 years old or are on the BATFE C&R list.

For more info on the C&R you can go here:

http://www.cruffler.com/

There is a link to The List. It is pretty extensive and has some neat stuff on it.

The C&R also lets you get discounts at Brownells, Midway etc. and you can shop at lots of C&R firearms dealers on the web.

Hope this is helpful to you.

[TheRising]

Well, believe it or not, I did actually read all about the FFL and the paperwork that was sent. I know what it is used for, or at least what it is intended for. I am just wondering about how hard it is to get one approved in my circumstance.

I may be young, but I am not stupid. Just because I want to get an FFL doesn't mean I am trying to build my personal collection. A second income in a field I enjoy while trying to save for a house at 23 years old wouldn't be a bad idea would it??

And, I don't want to sound like a jerk or anything but I wasn't asking for a lecture on how I should be a model FFL licensee.

Sorry in advance if you were just kidding around...

[gregthehand]

When I looked at getting one I was pretty much told that if your renting you will more than likely face an up-hill battle. Now if you know your landlord, and it's not just some manage you deal with then it may be a lot easier to just approach them, tell them what your doing, and make sure it's ok. From what I understood you have to do this to get the FFL if you rent. Also from what I understand when you buy, buying in bulk is the only way to go. Selling one firearm here or there will make it hard to get a profit margin off the deal. One guy I did talk to says that he would buy say a bulk of Glock firearms, as well as Springfield Armory at the same time and then sell from that inventory on gunbroker. He could keep his cost in line with the "big" guys, and still make money since he was doing it out of his house. Only problem was if someone came to him and said that they wanted a special order deal he didn't make much money on it. You could do this for a while to build your business but it may take some time.

[apowell]

Most cities require a business license to operate a home based business. If yours does, then that would be the first hurdle, and you have to submit that with your FFL application before it can be approved.

Bear in mind that you have to file a change of address application and, I think pay a small fee, every time you move. The timing is critical as you have to file it something like 90 days BEFORE you move if you want to continue operation w/out interruption. If you wait till you move to file, then you have to suspend operation until you get the updated license. You will also have to get an updated license from the city to run a home based business at the new location.

Your apartment complex / landlord may prohibit running home business out of your appt that require customers to come on site. They may also just try and run you out if they see a lot of firearms comming and going. People get nervous about the strangest things

I'll also tell you something else, from personal experience. You won't make much money on the side with an FFL unless you have a lot to invest in inventory and time to let it sit. Mark up on firearms isn't all that much, and inventory doesn't move as fast as other retail businesses. You can make a little money on transfers, and it is a lot of fun, but don't go into it expecting to make several hundred dollars per month on the side unless you have a lot of time and money to prime the pump. I got mine last November, and have made about $250 in profit since then, mostly on transfers. I'm not getting rich, but I'm not stopping either.

I would suggest talking to your complex management and the city before applying and spending your $200. You also might consider calling your local ATF office (there is one in most major cities) and asking them some straight forward questions.

I do know of one FFL in my city that runs out of his condo, but that isn't the same as an apartment since he owns his condo.

I hope this infomation helps you make your decision. Best of luck to you either way.

[TheRising]

Ya, i get your point guys. And it is well taken. I see that being in an apartment may not be the ideal place to start an FFL. I wasn't aware that it was as difficult as I now see. It seems you almost have to have startup capital just to break even getting the FFL and starting a semi-business.

apowell, does the Gov't get on your case ever about how much profit you are turning, or is it primarily based on the honor system. I could deal with not making much money on the FFL for a few years if I could turn it into something. If you don't mind me asking, what are your long term goals with your FFL??


It may have to wait until I buy a house, but I definitely would like to have an FFL business on the side. Either that or buying houses!!!!

If anyone has recently gone through the process, or is going through it now, I would love to hear how it is going and how your experience has been.

Thanks for the replies gentlemen. Appreciated!

[apowell]

You have to be pursuing a profit. Like most startups, you won't make one for a while. They can audit your books w/out notice once per year, and if they see that you aren't logging anything, then they will pull your license since you are apparently not actually engaging in business, but there is no official magic number.

I enjoy it and I hope that it will eventually grow enought that it does generate a decent amount of money on the side, but I doubt that it would ever generate as much income as my regular job in Information Technology. Worst case I get to see lots of cool toys that come in for transfer and do a little horse trading in the process. I also meet a lot of really nice people. Most gun nuts are pretty good people.

[KBCraig]

The problem with getting a home-based 01 FFL while in an apartment isn't so much one of "will they issue it?" The real problem is that your home becomes your "licensed premises". That makes where you live subject to one unannounced inspection per year, plus announced inspections as they see fit.

All inspections take place during your stated hours of business, so you don't have to worry about knocks on the door during the wee hours. Be careful when you list your hours of business on your application, because you must be open for inspection during those hours.

I assume you're not going to actually operate the business in your apartment, receiving customers there, etc.

What kind of business model do you have? You're not going to order a gun or two wholesale and undercut the brick-and-mortar dealers. Gander Mtn. and Academy buy guns by the truckload, and sell them retail for less than you'd be able to buy them from the distributors.

You can hustle and scrounge yard sales, flea markets, estate sales classified ads, gun show walk-ins, etc., and sometimes find some really good deals that would let you turn a profit. But you'll find yourself losing out on some of those deals when you ask to see the seller's driver's license. That's right -- when you have an FFL, you have to log all your purchases in your "record of acquisitions and dispositions", aka "the bound book". That means you must record the name, address, and identifying document (e.g., DL number) of the person from whom you acquire that firearm.

The record-keeping isn't onerous on a small scale, but it must be done correctly. ATF auditors make their living poring over paperwork looking for the tiniest of errors.

I'm not trying to discourage you from picking up something that you can use in the future. Matter of fact, I salute you for looking for a way to own your own business. But if you want to get into the gun trade, I suggest you'd learn more --not to mention make more money-- by working someone else's gun counter. Apply at all your area dealers, especially those who have tables at gun shows (because they always need help to fill behind their gun show trade).

After you learn the ins and outs and pitfalls of the business, then you can consider getting your own 01 FFL.

Good luck with it.

Kevin

[TheRising]

Kevin,

I was mainly considering flipping gun show deals. I figured that would be the best place to find cheap guns that have some good worth. I was also considering Sheriff sales and such.

As for applying to local gun stores....I am training to be a Flight Controller for the International Space Station, so, a second job isn't really in the picture at this time...