Motorcycle carry?

[knauck]

Good morning,

I ride a Kawasaki Ninja ZX-11 1990 and have been considering getting a CHL for a year or so. Yesterday I got the push I needed to finally do it when a gentleman with a knife attacked me who had a rather serious case of road rage. Fortunately, when he swung it at me he lost his grip on it and it flew out of his hand and I got to it first...police were called and I didn't press charges.

When I was 17 I was assaulted by 12 'Bloods'(?) who drove up in two red suburbans, jumped out, and crushed my skull with a baseball bat.

I give these two examples because I need to know if I would have been justified in pulling a handgun in these situations. I'd never draw without the intent to shoot, but would I be justified in such an action against a gang with a bat or a man with a knife? I can say that if I had a handgun on me when I was accosted yesterday, I would have drawn but not shot unless he continued aggression...is this acceptable? I'd like to know what your thoughts are before I take the class to know if it's even worth my time and money to take.

Also...does anyone who carries on this board ride a motorcycle? If so, where do you carry? I'd like an 'inside the waistband' that's in the 'front', but I can't see how that'd work straddling a streetbike.

[cmwoodruff]

Both examples show signs of "deadly force". Either one could have had deadly results. I'm pretty sure that you would be justified in both cases.

[Jaguar]

First, welcome to the forum.

It is a big decision to start carrying, but there is a lot of good information on this site that will help you make the decision. I would suggest you browse around here and you will see many of your questions have been answered. I would also suggest you go to the DPS website and read through CHL-16 for all the laws regarding carrying a concealed weapon.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/InternetFo ... CHL-16.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As far as being attacked with a knife – yes, you are legally allowed to defend yourself against a deadly weapon using deadly force, and a knife is a deadly weapon.

Being attacked by two carloads of thugs? Yes. You may defend your life against deadly force, and 12 on 1 is a disparity of force which would be considered deadly, especially since they used a weapon (baseball bat.) Since you were 17 at the time you would not have been able to carry in TX as you must be 21, or 18 if active duty military.

Motorcycle carry is difficult, I ride a 1400 Intruder and carry IWB with a tuckable holster, http://theisholsters.com/ at about 3:30 – 4:00 and tuck my shirt in over the pistol. It prints like crazy but at least it isn’t exposed and printing isn’t against the law. Not perfect but I can live with it. Long tee shirts go a long way in being able to carry. My bike has a more upright sitting position so that may not work as well for you.

[RPBrown]

First, welcome to the forum.

It is a big decision to start carrying, but there is a lot of good information on this site that will help you make the decision. I would suggest you browse around here and you will see many of your questions have been answered. I would also suggest you go to the DPS website and read through CHL-16 for all the laws regarding carrying a concealed weapon.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/InternetFo ... CHL-16.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As far as being attacked with a knife – yes, you are legally allowed to defend yourself against a deadly weapon using deadly force, and a knife is a deadly weapon.

Being attacked by two carloads of thugs? Yes. You may defend your life against deadly force, and 12 on 1 is a disparity of force which would be considered deadly, especially since they used a weapon (baseball bat.) Since you were 17 at the time you would not have been able to carry in TX as you must be 21, or 18 if active duty military.

Motorcycle carry is difficult, I ride a 1400 Intruder and carry IWB with a tuckable holster, http://theisholsters.com/ at about 3:30 – 4:00 and tuck my shirt in over the pistol. It prints like crazy but at least it isn’t exposed and printing isn’t against the law. Not perfect but I can live with it. Long tee shirts go a long way in being able to carry. My bike has a more upright sitting position so that may not work as well for you.

I agree with Jaguar here. In both cases you would have been justified in the use of deadly force.

As for carry on a sport bike, a lot depends on your dress. Do you wear full protective gear all of the time or are you like us outlaes that ride in t-shirts when possible.
I ride a Harley and realize the difference in difficulty in concelment. However, I usually have a vest on and can carry in the inner pocket. Not great but it works.
When not in a vest, I will wear a long t-shirt that covers and I am able to sit on it to keep it down. It does print some but that is not illegal.

[knauck]

Thanks for your reply.

I would never have carried a handgun at 17, I was merely using that as an example - whether a blunt melee weapon counted as deadly.

I ride with boots, jeans, gloves, a t-shirt and helmet. I wear a textile jacket when possible (i.e. under 95 degrees.)

[E.Marquez]

I carry on my current bikes.. VTR1000F, DRZ485 SuperMoto, Ninja 650R and many others in the past.

Most times I use a Supertuck IWB at 3:30.
Sometimes I'll use my OWB also at 3:30...and tuck a shirt under and around it while riding... Un tuck and let hand while stopped.
My riding jackets cover well when riding.

37 years of riding...... Im confident in both my riding and carry methods.. If I go down or abandon the bike,,, my gun is with me.
Some will say,, BUT if you fall the gun will hurt you..... Ya ok,, if I fall, an extra bruise is not going to concern me.. Having fallen from just over 100 on the track in leathers, to several different speeds on the street in jeans, textile, leather and armored jeans.. ... a bruise from the gun smashing into my hip should I land on it.. is not a concern..

[SQLGeek]

I would never have carried a handgun at 17, I was merely using that as an example - whether a blunt melee weapon counted as deadly.

Absolutely. Even if they had no weapons other than their hands and feet you could make a very good case for the use of deadly force due to the disparity of force. A 12 on 1 situation will result in you on the ground getting stomped with a good chance of getting your skull caved in anyways.

Weapons aren't just knives and guns. Baseball bats, crowbars, golf clubs, chains and such can all be used to kill you.

In the case with the knife, I've got to ask why you didn't press charges? He lunged at you with a deadly weapon, he was not only trying to kill you but is willing to kill a perfect stranger over a road confrontation. That makes him a danger to society.

Assuming you did not provoke his use of illegal force, you would've been well within your rights to defend yourself with deadly force. A knife can kill or seriously wound you. Google the Tueller drill for more information about an assailant wielding a knife and their ability to inflict bodily harm on you starting from a distance that most would perceive is safe.

Welcome to the forum!

[knauck]

In the case with the knife, I've got to ask why you didn't press charges? He lunged at you with a deadly weapon, he was not only trying to kill you but is willing to kill a perfect stranger over a road confrontation. That makes him a danger to society.

Because I think that sometimes people actually learn something when you have all the power and nothing to fear and you show mercy. After I picked up his knife, I folded it up and told him I'd even give it back to him if he swore to stay away from me and my wife, daughter and property. It was clearly a pocket knife he used wherever he worked from the gummy stuff on the blade and the sheath he kept it in. He still acted like a tough guy, but I saw him shaking. I slammed him against the wall and told him that under no uncertain terms, the next time he attacked me or my family, I would kill him and ask no questions. I then dropped the knife in his breast pocket and gestured towards his car. I was prepared to use my helmet as a weapon and was not worried in the slightest at that point.

I didn't even call the police, someone else did. I was prepared to let it slide.

Assuming you did not provoke his use of illegal force, you would've been well within your rights to defend yourself with deadly force. A knife can kill or seriously wound you. Google the Tueller drill for more information about an assailant wielding a knife and their ability to inflict bodily harm on you starting from a distance that most would perceive is safe.

The 'provocation' was me brake checking him. He saw me coming at 60 mph, and he slowed to 30 on a 45 road. I waited about 500 feet, realized he was just being a jerk, then passed him in the right-hand lane. He sped up, so I changed lanes ahead of him and slowed to 30 myself. He passed in to incoming traffic over a double yellow. I realized that he was clearly unstable so I changed lanes and continued on my way at regular speed. He followed me to my apartment. Fortunately there were about 7-8 witnesses so I was in no legal danger.

As a point of interest, the speed had just changed to 45 from 55 less than a quarter mile back. I was going a little faster than the surrounding traffic, but not much.

Welcome to the forum!

Thanks =)

[RoyGBiv]

I've ridden motorcycles on the street for 30+ years, here's my $0.02..

1. You'll be taught in your CHL class that it's our responsibility to a. avoid creating a problem and b. to attempt to de-escalate if possible. In the case you describe of the road construction road rage, based on your description, you failed at both of these tasks. You could very easily have avoided the whole thing by letting the other driver "win". No need to pass him. No need to give back what he gave you. That's escalating the problem. if that is your normal personality, I suggest you do some soul searching before choosing to get your license. If I am on the Grand Jury and this is what I'm presented with, it's unlikely that I'd vote to charge you for using your gun when threatened with a knife, but I absolutely would feel that you contributed to making the situation worse. (again, based on what you've written here).

2. Carrying on a motorcycle can be done in many ways... you should think about your riding needs before deciding... 1. Do you ride for recreation only? because when you stop to go inside a "no carry" store, or into work, or into a school, where will you store your gun? A tank bag works fine for concealment and access, but if you can't carry it into the store, what are you going to do? 2. Clothing.... Wearing only a t-shirt will be difficult to conceal (not to mention safety issues). Blowing wind, etc... 3. Accessibility and usefulness... Are you left handed? Because shooting and riding simultaneously is a difficult task...

You mention wanting to carry "in the front".. Do some web searches for "Appendix carry" and "AIWB"... This is NOT recommended for new shooters. An accidental discharge could be fatal.

If you find yourself riding with a jacket usually, a shoulder rig is actually quite sensible with a slightly over-sized jacket. There are also some "undershirt" options such as the Kangaroo Carry that might work under a t-shirt... If you ask folks here, you'll find that most of us have a box full of holsters we don't use.... a result of trying and not liking. Holster choices are very personal... dependent on lots of things including body type and shape. What works for me won't necessarily work for you.

Think about de-escalation... if you feel you can accept that responsibility... take the class.

[Jaguar]

The 'provocation' was me brake checking him. He saw me coming at 60 mph, and he slowed to 30 on a 45 road. I waited about 500 feet, realized he was just being a dick, then passed him in the right-hand lane. He sped up, so I changed lanes ahead of him and slowed to 30 myself. He passed in to incoming traffic over a double yellow. I realized that he was clearly unstable so I changed lanes and continued on my way at regular speed.

This is something I would highly advise you to avoid if you do decide to get a CHL. What you did is not illegal to my knowledge, but intentionally escalating the situation does no one any good, and had it come to a use of deadly force you would have been in a bad position. Part of the CHL class is non-violent dispute resolution for exactly the reason you have here, i.e., you could have acted the same way and used deadly force against this guy, or you could have driven down the road with no interaction, or turned off unexpectedly, and the situation would never had evolved to where it did.

As a fellow rider, I want to yank people out of their cars and smack them upside their heads, but it is better to be cool about boneheads than to engage in a game of chicken especially since in car vs. MC, your odds suck.

I had to work on leaving my attitude at home when carrying, but it can be done. I actually walked away from a man in a drunken roid rage while he was screaming at the top of his lunges how he would rip my head off and defile my corpse in the middle of a restaurant's parking lot. I doubt he realized he was about 2' away from having several 9mm holes in his torso.

Did I feel a bit defeated by walking away? Yup. But it beat the heck out of having to shoot him.

[knauck]

I've ridden motorcycles on the street for 30+ years, here's my $0.02..

1. You'll be taught in your CHL class that it's our responsibility to a. avoid creating a problem and b. to attempt to de-escalate if possible. In the case you describe of the road construction road rage, based on your description, you failed at both of these tasks. You could very easily have avoided the whole thing by letting the other driver "win". No need to pass him. No need to give back what he gave you. That's escalating the problem. if that is your normal personality, I suggest you do some soul searching before choosing to get your license. If I am on the Grand Jury and this is what I'm presented with, it's unlikely that I'd vote to charge you for using your gun when threatened with a knife, but I absolutely would feel that you contributed to making the situation worse. (again, based on what you've written here).

Think about de-escalation... if you feel you can accept that responsibility... take the class.

That's a bit overly broad to start with. Also there was indeed reason to pass him, as being behind someone going that slowly endangers you in that you will most likely get rear-ended by someone not paying attention. The unneeded part was when I changed lanes to get in front of him and slowed down too. Saying that if my normal personality is to cut someone off because they intentionally slammed on their brakes in front of me means I wouldn't have the self control to wield a concealed handgun is...well...naive. No offence. I believe I showed my character when I did not press charges and even handed him his knife back.

Aside from that, I'd prefer to carry a j-frame revolver. I imagine this would be the least likely to accidentally discharge, and the absence of a slide means it'd be usable in more awkward handling scenarios where the slid on a semiauto would do damage to one's own hands, etc. Are these assumptions accurate?

[Jaguar]

That's a bit overly broad to start with. Also there was indeed reason to pass him, as being behind someone going that slowly endangers you in that you will most likely get rear-ended by someone not paying attention. The unneeded part was when I changed lanes to get in front of him and slowed down too. Saying that if my normal personality is to cut someone off because they intentionally slammed on their brakes in front of me means I wouldn't have the self control to wield a concealed handgun is...well...naive. No offence. I believe I showed my character when I did not press charges and even handed him his knife back.

Aside from that, I'd prefer to carry a j-frame revolver. I imagine this would be the least likely to accidentally discharge, and the absence of a slide means it'd be usable in more awkward handling scenarios where the slid on a semiauto would do damage to one's own hands, etc. Are these assumptions accurate?

Since we don't know you, we cannot be specific. Roy was being overly broad on purpose since he cannot state you do this every time someone is driving below posted speeds or if it was a one time lapse. All we have to go on is what you tell us, and I agree with Roy that by not deescalating the event, you made it worse. If that is your personality type, I would suggest you not carry, if it was a one time event, take the class and see if it is right for you.

This forum is the best one I have ever been on, and I feel as many others here do that we are ambassadors for CHL, and as such we want to people to genuinely take stock of themselves and make the right decision not only for themselves, but the Texas CHL community at large. A black eye for one CHL holder is a black eye for the entire community.

As for type of pistol to carry, I prefer semiautomatics. They carry more rounds and are easier to reload. My wife prefers revolvers, they are easier for her to shoot. Asking which is like asking blond, brunette, or redhead. (I say redhead )

[RJGold]

I carry my XDM 9mm on my Suzuki Boulevard C90T (1500cc) in an IWB (either CompTac MTAC or TactiPac Fusion). I wear T-shirts if it's hot and don't have a problem with them blowing as I have a backrest. If I have a jacket on, it's even less of a concern. I also occasionally carry my Browning 9mm Hi Power in a Dave Bullard IWB with no issues. Depending on the jeans and shirt I am wearing and which weapon / holster combo I have on, I carry somewhere between 3:00 and 4:30.

As far as the question of accessibility and usability while riding, I am afraid I'd have to be at least stopped and probably dismounted to be able to engage effectively. My bike is a handful and I can't see myself playing Tom Cruise and shooting or even drawing while moving.

I think you've received enough advice on the other questions you asked about your situations.

Good luck.

[RJGold]

One other note about what to do with your pistol if you couldn't carry it into a location and were on a motorcycle.

I have a Gunvault Nano Vault that I stick in my saddle bag or tail bag on my luggage rack. Before I leave the house I lock the cable around the frame of the luggage rack. If I had to, I could lock the pistol in that vault and feel relatively secure. I have not used it for my pistol but have used it for my Sena Intercoms before. If I have my tail bag I run the cable through the mounting sleeve and it "locks" my bag on as well.

The trouble would be finding a suitable place to remove the pistol and get it in the vault and then back out again.

I mostly ride for recreation so I can pick and choose where I go and this has not been a big issue for me.

Probably not a perfect solution but it's the best I could come up with so far.

[RoyGBiv]

I've ridden motorcycles on the street for 30+ years, here's my $0.02..

1. You'll be taught in your CHL class that it's our responsibility to a. avoid creating a problem and b. to attempt to de-escalate if possible. In the case you describe of the road construction road rage, based on your description, you failed at both of these tasks. You could very easily have avoided the whole thing by letting the other driver "win". No need to pass him. No need to give back what he gave you. That's escalating the problem. if that is your normal personality, I suggest you do some soul searching before choosing to get your license. If I am on the Grand Jury and this is what I'm presented with, it's unlikely that I'd vote to charge you for using your gun when threatened with a knife, but I absolutely would feel that you contributed to making the situation worse. (again, based on what you've written here).

Think about de-escalation... if you feel you can accept that responsibility... take the class.

That's a bit overly broad to start with. Also there was indeed reason to pass him, as being behind someone going that slowly endangers you in that you will most likely get rear-ended by someone not paying attention. The unneeded part was when I changed lanes to get in front of him and slowed down too. Saying that if my normal personality is to cut someone off because they intentionally slammed on their brakes in front of me means I wouldn't have the self control to wield a concealed handgun is...well...naive. No offence. I believe I showed my character when I did not press charges and even handed him his knife back.

Fair enough... All I have to go on is what's written here, but I was hoping to make a broad point about deescalation.
Instead of pondering the advice, you seem to choose to be insulted and engage in further confrontation.... Think about it.

Here's the bottom line... If you're the guy that can't say no to the temptation of "setting the record straight" (or whatever you want to call it), I'd respectfully submit you should wait a few years before you choose to carry a gun. I don't want to bait you or carry this discussion any further. I'll let you have the last word if you choose to do so.