A bar without a 51% sign?

[Jihans]

I met some people at a large hotel today and they wanted to sit in the bar. It didn't have a 51% sign posted anywhere as I'm sure that even with the outrageous prices they charge 51% of their income doesn't come from liquor.

Anyway, is it legal to carry in a hotel bar. Obviously how much alcohol you drink while carrying is a different subject all together. Just wondering about carrying in a hotel bar.

[jmorris]

I met some people at a large hotel today and they wanted to sit in the bar. It didn't have a 51% sign posted anywhere as I'm sure that even with the outrageous prices they charge 51% of their income doesn't come from liquor.

Anyway, is it legal to carry in a hotel bar. Obviously how much alcohol you drink while carrying is a different subject all together. Just wondering about carrying in a hotel bar.

It depends on whether the bar is operated separately from the hotel or as part of the hotel operations. Simplest way to tell is to look for the license. Has to be displayed somewhere. See if the "sign=" is red or blue.

[tomtexan]

I met some people at a large hotel today and they wanted to sit in the bar. It didn't have a 51% sign posted anywhere as I'm sure that even with the outrageous prices they charge 51% of their income doesn't come from liquor.

Anyway, is it legal to carry in a hotel bar. Obviously how much alcohol you drink while carrying is a different subject all together. Just wondering about carrying in a hotel bar.

It depends on whether the bar is operated separately from the hotel or as part of the hotel operations. Simplest way to tell is to look for the license. Has to be displayed somewhere. See if the "sign=" is red or blue.

And you can do so right here: TABC License Information

[gringo pistolero]

Anyway, is it legal to carry in a hotel bar. Obviously how much alcohol you drink while carrying is a different subject all together. Just wondering about carrying in a hotel bar.

It depends on their license. I have eaten in many a hotel bar during business trips without drinking alcohol and there's no reason (other than the anti-gun hysteria spread by Straus and company) the bar area should be treated differently than the adjacent lobby. It's a shame we don't have more legislators in Texas with some respect for the Bill of Rights.

[C-dub]

And if it really is a 51% bar and not posted it is still illegal, but not being posted is a defense to prosecution. If I thought it was a bar I wouldn't chance it posted or not.

[EEllis]

In texas the bar would be licensed separately from the hotel and only the operations in the bar or bar/restaurant would count towards calculation of it's status. Look around. If it's a restaurant with a bar then maybe you are ok. If it's a bar first then most likely you are in violation. Either way they must have signs up indicating if they are a 51% or not. Just remember that if they have the wrong sign up is not a defence.

[gringo pistolero]

Just remember that if they have the wrong sign up is not a defence.

Actually, it is, like C-dub said.

[Keith B]

In texas the bar would be licensed separately from the hotel and only the operations in the bar or bar/restaurant would count towards calculation of it's status. Look around. If it's a restaurant with a bar then maybe you are ok. If it's a bar first then most likely you are in violation. Either way they must have signs up indicating if they are a 51% or not. Just remember that if they have the wrong sign up is not a defence.

Can you quote the rule on this that they are separate?

[Jihans]

In texas the bar would be licensed separately from the hotel and only the operations in the bar or bar/restaurant would count towards calculation of it's status. Look around. If it's a restaurant with a bar then maybe you are ok. If it's a bar first then most likely you are in violation. Either way they must have signs up indicating if they are a 51% or not. Just remember that if they have the wrong sign up is not a defence.

Can you quote the rule on this that they are separate?

The restaurant is licensed separately from the bar ( health department vs. liquor license). I don't think licensing enters into it, ownership does. My understanding is that the 51% calculation is simply the percentage of the total business income that is derived from the sale of liquor. In a bar this percentage is very high as the little and relatively inexpensive food they serve is greatly outweighed by liquor sales. High end restaurants are at the other extreme.

Some hotels sub out restaurant/bar functions.... Like Starbucks in hotels... and I've seen 51% signs in the sports bars of some hotels. But if what I am assuming is correct....and that's why I'm asking... Is what about the hotels that operate their own small lobby bars.... Again, I didn't see a 51% sign anywhere. Is it legal to carry. Is it the 51% of income that dictates or just the fact that I'm sitting on a bar stool?

[RottenApple]

The restaurant is licensed separately from the bar ( health department vs. liquor license). I don't think licensing enters into it, ownership does. My understanding is that the 51% calculation is simply the percentage of the total business income that is derived from the sale of liquor. In a bar this percentage is very high as the little and relatively inexpensive food they serve is greatly outweighed by liquor sales. High end restaurants are at the other extreme.

Some hotels sub out restaurant/bar functions.... Like Starbucks in hotels... and I've seen 51% signs in the sports bars of some hotels. But if what I am assuming is correct....and that's why I'm asking... Is what about the hotels that operate their own small lobby bars.... Again, I didn't see a 51% sign anywhere. Is it legal to carry. Is it the 51% of income that dictates or just the fact that I'm sitting on a bar stool?

The owner & location are what receives the license in both cases. So a hotel that owns & operates its own bar is probably not a 51% location because far less that 51% of its total income comes from the bar. But if the hotel subs out the bar, then the bar area is most likely a 51% location.

The best thing to do is look it up on TABC's website. If it says "sign=red", don't carry in there.

[srothstein]

Just to clarify the TABC licensing, the ownership of the business is what makes the difference. If the alcohol license is applied for int he name of the hotel company, then it is licensed to the hotel and the hotel income is used to determine if they are 51% or not. If the bar is contracted out to a separate company with separate owners, then only the bar income is used to determine the 51% rule. If the hotel contracts out to a company to run the bar and the restaurant together, then the food and the alcohol are used, but not the hotel rooms for the 51% determination.

TABC actually has investigators who look into ownership of companies, so the people owning the company cannot be the same or it counts as the same company even if the corporations are fully separated. This is done to prevent fraud in licensing requirement.

I have seen all sorts of these permutations used. I can think of one hotel we checked that had the license in the hotel name and gave the drinks away free. They used a free happy hour as part of their marketing similar to La Quinta using free breakfasts. I also know of hotels where the room service is contracted out to a food company with the restaurant but the hotel bar is a separate company. The bar company got a 51% determination and had a license for the whole hotel so room service could include drinks.

If you ask any TABC agent, they will verify that hotels make for all sorts of weird cases, as do winery tasting rooms. The rules are the same, but the applications can get very twisted.

EDIT: apparently RottenApple was typing as I was and said it in a much less verbose manner.

So the answer to the OP is "it depends." As was suggested earlier, the best verification is to look up the address in the TABC database and be sure.

[RottenApple]

EDIT: apparently RottenApple was typing as I was and said it in a much less verbose manner.

My answer may have been less verbose (good word usage, btw ), but your post was far more complete. to you, sir.

[Keith B]

In texas the bar would be licensed separately from the hotel and only the operations in the bar or bar/restaurant would count towards calculation of it's status. Look around. If it's a restaurant with a bar then maybe you are ok. If it's a bar first then most likely you are in violation. Either way they must have signs up indicating if they are a 51% or not. Just remember that if they have the wrong sign up is not a defence.

Can you quote the rule on this that they are separate?

The restaurant is licensed separately from the bar ( health department vs. liquor license). I don't think licensing enters into it, ownership does. My understanding is that the 51% calculation is simply the percentage of the total business income that is derived from the sale of liquor. In a bar this percentage is very high as the little and relatively inexpensive food they serve is greatly outweighed by liquor sales. High end restaurants are at the other extreme.

Some hotels sub out restaurant/bar functions.... Like Starbucks in hotels... and I've seen 51% signs in the sports bars of some hotels. But if what I am assuming is correct....and that's why I'm asking... Is what about the hotels that operate their own small lobby bars.... Again, I didn't see a 51% sign anywhere. Is it legal to carry. Is it the 51% of income that dictates or just the fact that I'm sitting on a bar stool?

I understand subcontracted or separate ownership, as described by you and srothstein. I was questioning EEllis on his comment about them having to be licensed separately. They do not have to be separate and can all be owned by one business. And per your comment, a restaurant and bar don't have to be licensed separately, but will have a food license and a liquor license as they are separate licenses, not separate ownership.

[EEllis]

I understand subcontracted or separate ownership, as described by you and srothstein. I was questioning EEllis on his comment about them having to be licensed separately. They do not have to be separate and can all be owned by one business. And per your comment, a restaurant and bar don't have to be licensed separately, but will have a food license and a liquor license as they are separate licenses, not separate ownership.

TABC has separate licenses based on the business including different licenses for mixed drinks, mixed drinks w/food, late night mixed drinks, late night mixed drinks w/food, beer and wine licenses, mini bar licenses, wine tasting, ect.While I have been involved with some licensing for bars I never dealt with it in a hotel. A hotel that has a bar that can serve the entire hotel (room service) might consider the entire revenue of the hotel ( I don't know for sure) into it's 51% calc. But I can't think of the last hotel I went to in Texas that would serve a open mixed drink in my room. Considering all the factors if it's a sit at the bar and order something deep fried kind of place you would be risking it thinking it was anything but a 51%

[EEllis]

Just remember that if they have the wrong sign up is not a defence.

Actually, it is, like C-dub said.

Sorry you are right. It is a defence to prosecution that they didn't have a sign, but that may not keep you from getting arrested.