Is Sunday Shool considered a school from the CHL perspective

CHL discussions that do not fit into more specific topics

Moderators: carlson1, Charles L. Cotton

User avatar
ATDM
Senior Member
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:17 pm
Location: TEXAS

Is Sunday Shool considered a school from the CHL perspective

Post by ATDM »

My church does not have a 30.06; so I know I can attend services there while carrying.

What I am not sure about is whether or not I can walk into the children's Sunday School building to get my kids after the service, because I don't know if it is defined as "SCHOOL" by the law from the concealed carry angle.

A hypothetical question also begs to be asked. Some churches are small, and their Sunday School for children is located in the same building as the main services. If a children's Sunday School is defined as a school, does it mean I can't walk into that church with a concealed weapon at all?

Does anyone know answers to both of these questions for sure?

Thanks.

:patriot:
I cling to my God — Jesus Christ.
I love my wife and kids.
I am proud to be an American and Texan.
And... I cling to my guns.
android
Senior Member
Posts: 508
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:11 pm

Re: Is Sunday Shool considered a school from the CHL perspec

Post by android »

Only if they can collect taxes.
User avatar
ATDM
Senior Member
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:17 pm
Location: TEXAS

Re: Is Sunday Shool considered a school from the CHL perspec

Post by ATDM »

android wrote:Only if they can collect taxes.
If the taxes are a qualifying factor, there are many private educational institutions that exist without a portion of the taxes, yet they still fall under the "school" category...

Are you sure about it?
I cling to my God — Jesus Christ.
I love my wife and kids.
I am proud to be an American and Texan.
And... I cling to my guns.
User avatar
SewTexas
Senior Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:52 pm
Location: Alvin
Contact:

Re: Is Sunday Shool considered a school from the CHL perspec

Post by SewTexas »

no, Sunday School is not considered a school.
~Tracy
Gun control is what you talk about when you don't want to talk about the truth ~ Colion Noir
User avatar
Keith B
Moderator
Posts: 18503
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:29 pm

Re: Is Sunday Shool considered a school from the CHL perspec

Post by Keith B »

Sunday school is not a school in regards to no carry by statutes. However, a school sponsored by a church (K-12 parochial school) probably would be. There is not a solid definition, but general consensus is that if it is accredited by the Texas Education Association (TEA) as a public or private school, then it is a school. Otherwise, it's not.
Keith
Texas LTC Instructor, Missouri CCW Instructor, NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun Instructor and RSO, NRA Life Member

Psalm 82:3-4
User avatar
Running Arrow Bill
Senior Member
Posts: 239
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:58 pm
Location: Wellington, TX
Contact:

Re: Is Sunday Shool considered a school from the CHL perspec

Post by Running Arrow Bill »

I agree with Keith. Sunday "school" is a religious forum for indoctrination of kids in their Church's doctrine. It is not an accredited "school" by educational standards. It could also be considered a "meeting place" for religious discussion, reading of Bible passages, verses, etc. It could also be considered a "social event" for kids to get together and/or for parents to have a break from their kids... JMO...
Running Arrow Farm, LLC
Wellington, TX. 79095
longhorncattle2013@gmail.ocom
Registered Texas Longhorn Cattle
cb1000rider
Senior Member
Posts: 2505
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:27 pm

Re: Is Sunday Shool considered a school from the CHL perspec

Post by cb1000rider »

Keith B wrote:Sunday school is not a school in regards to no carry by statutes. However, a school sponsored by a church (K-12 parochial school) probably would be. There is not a solid definition, but general consensus is that if it is accredited by the Texas Education Association (TEA) as a public or private school, then it is a school. Otherwise, it's not.
There is still the pre-K issue. The church that we attend has a program for pre-K kids which is attached to the main church. By pre-K program, I don't mean just on Sundays. It operates during the week. My child attends it. As a church, they don't collect taxes - just like any other private school. And as it's pre-K, it's not accredited. I don't think the taxation or accreditation factors work in all cases.

As such, my conservative view is that the church is attached to a school and I can't carry without permission.

How this would go down in terms of legal prosecution, I really don't know - but there is a rational argument to be made that it's a "school" and I can see some aggressive DA's backing enforcement actions.
RottenApple
Senior Member
Posts: 1774
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:19 pm

Re: Is Sunday Shool considered a school from the CHL perspec

Post by RottenApple »

cb1000rider wrote:
Keith B wrote:Sunday school is not a school in regards to no carry by statutes. However, a school sponsored by a church (K-12 parochial school) probably would be. There is not a solid definition, but general consensus is that if it is accredited by the Texas Education Association (TEA) as a public or private school, then it is a school. Otherwise, it's not.
There is still the pre-K issue. The church that we attend has a program for pre-K kids which is attached to the main church. By pre-K program, I don't mean just on Sundays. It operates during the week. My child attends it. As a church, they don't collect taxes - just like any other private school. And as it's pre-K, it's not accredited. I don't think the taxation or accreditation factors work in all cases.

As such, my conservative view is that the church is attached to a school and I can't carry without permission.

How this would go down in terms of legal prosecution, I really don't know - but there is a rational argument to be made that it's a "school" and I can see some aggressive DA's backing enforcement actions.
You said the school is "attached to the main church". Does this mean that it is a separate building that is connected (like with a hallway/walkway)? If so, then I'd say carry in the church (or other non-school buildings) is perfectly legal. The school building itself is, of course, off limits.

If its all one building and school is held in classrooms in the church, then I'd say you were right that carry is completely off-limits.

BTW, Texas Education Code sec 5.001 (6-a) defines a private school as:

(
6-a) "Private school" means a school that:
(A) offers a course of instruction for students in one or more grades from prekindergarten through grade 12; and
(B) is not operated by a governmental entity.
So Sunday School definitely would not meet the requirements.
cb1000rider
Senior Member
Posts: 2505
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:27 pm

Re: Is Sunday Shool considered a school from the CHL perspec

Post by cb1000rider »

RottenApple wrote: You said the school is "attached to the main church". Does this mean that it is a separate building that is connected (like with a hallway/walkway)? If so, then I'd say carry in the church (or other non-school buildings) is perfectly legal. The school building itself is, of course, off limits.
No, I mean that it's in the same building. Literally just a different room.
RottenApple wrote: If its all one building and school is held in classrooms in the church, then I'd say you were right that carry is completely off-limits.
RottenApple wrote: BTW, Texas Education Code sec 5.001 (6-a) defines a private school as:
(
6-a) "Private school" means a school that:
(A) offers a course of instruction for students in one or more grades from prekindergarten through grade 12; and
(B) is not operated by a governmental entity.
So Sunday School definitely would not meet the requirements.
I agree with you that Sunday School isn't "school" in terms of CHL prohibition... However, many of these churches run some sort of parochial school program and even if they're just running it one day per week, that's probably enough to cause prohibition among CHL holders. In our particular case, I know that the pastor has authorized at least one CHL, so it's not like they're anti-firearm.
User avatar
Keith B
Moderator
Posts: 18503
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:29 pm

Re: Is Sunday Shool considered a school from the CHL perspec

Post by Keith B »

cb1000rider wrote: There is still the pre-K issue. The church that we attend has a program for pre-K kids which is attached to the main church. By pre-K program, I don't mean just on Sundays. It operates during the week. My child attends it. As a church, they don't collect taxes - just like any other private school. And as it's pre-K, it's not accredited. I don't think the taxation or accreditation factors work in all cases.

As such, my conservative view is that the church is attached to a school and I can't carry without permission.

How this would go down in terms of legal prosecution, I really don't know - but there is a rational argument to be made that it's a "school" and I can see some aggressive DA's backing enforcement actions.
The pre-K may not be a certified program with TEA, so wouldn't necessarily say it was a school. Grey area. However, if it is held in the church, then I would say if it is not in session, then the church is a church and OK to carry no matter.
Keith
Texas LTC Instructor, Missouri CCW Instructor, NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun Instructor and RSO, NRA Life Member

Psalm 82:3-4
User avatar
ATDM
Senior Member
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:17 pm
Location: TEXAS

Re: Is Sunday Shool considered a school from the CHL perspec

Post by ATDM »

Running Arrow Bill wrote:I agree with Keith. Sunday "school" is a religious forum for indoctrination of kids in their Church's doctrine. It is not an accredited "school" by educational standards. It could also be considered a "meeting place" for religious discussion, reading of Bible passages, verses, etc. It could also be considered a "social event" for kids to get together and/or for parents to have a break from their kids... JMO...
A little off topic: I don't know what type of church you were exposed to (maybe, a cult?), but any Christian church would never "indoctrinate" kids. A children's Sunday School (at least, in churches I have attended since I became a Christian) simply teach children Bible lessons, truths about Christ and how to become a Christian, and then grow spiritually. I have never witnessed any indoctrination. I only know about it taking place in various cults.

I know that this is beside the my question as the author of this thread, but I wanted to make it clear for the benefit of other readers of my question.

Thank you.
I cling to my God — Jesus Christ.
I love my wife and kids.
I am proud to be an American and Texan.
And... I cling to my guns.
User avatar
ATDM
Senior Member
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:17 pm
Location: TEXAS

Re: Is Sunday Shool considered a school from the CHL perspec

Post by ATDM »

Keith B wrote:
cb1000rider wrote: There is still the pre-K issue. The church that we attend has a program for pre-K kids which is attached to the main church. By pre-K program, I don't mean just on Sundays. It operates during the week. My child attends it. As a church, they don't collect taxes - just like any other private school. And as it's pre-K, it's not accredited. I don't think the taxation or accreditation factors work in all cases.

As such, my conservative view is that the church is attached to a school and I can't carry without permission.

How this would go down in terms of legal prosecution, I really don't know - but there is a rational argument to be made that it's a "school" and I can see some aggressive DA's backing enforcement actions.
The pre-K may not be a certified program with TEA, so wouldn't necessarily say it was a school. Grey area. However, if it is held in the church, then I would say if it is not in session, then the church is a church and OK to carry no matter.
Thank you, Keith B. This makes perfect sense.
I cling to my God — Jesus Christ.
I love my wife and kids.
I am proud to be an American and Texan.
And... I cling to my guns.
User avatar
ATDM
Senior Member
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:17 pm
Location: TEXAS

Re: Is Sunday Shool considered a school from the CHL perspec

Post by ATDM »

cb1000rider wrote:
Keith B wrote:Sunday school is not a school in regards to no carry by statutes. However, a school sponsored by a church (K-12 parochial school) probably would be. There is not a solid definition, but general consensus is that if it is accredited by the Texas Education Association (TEA) as a public or private school, then it is a school. Otherwise, it's not.
There is still the pre-K issue. The church that we attend has a program for pre-K kids which is attached to the main church. By pre-K program, I don't mean just on Sundays. It operates during the week. My child attends it. As a church, they don't collect taxes - just like any other private school. And as it's pre-K, it's not accredited. I don't think the taxation or accreditation factors work in all cases.

As such, my conservative view is that the church is attached to a school and I can't carry without permission.

How this would go down in terms of legal prosecution, I really don't know - but there is a rational argument to be made that it's a "school" and I can see some aggressive DA's backing enforcement actions.
Do you think, CB1000rider, that the status of your particular Sunday School changes on Sundays, when the regular teaching school is not in session, and it would be OK to carry on Sundays?
I cling to my God — Jesus Christ.
I love my wife and kids.
I am proud to be an American and Texan.
And... I cling to my guns.
User avatar
Kythas
Senior Member
Posts: 1685
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:06 am
Location: McKinney, TX

Re: Is Sunday Shool considered a school from the CHL perspec

Post by Kythas »

ATDM wrote:
Running Arrow Bill wrote:I agree with Keith. Sunday "school" is a religious forum for indoctrination of kids in their Church's doctrine. It is not an accredited "school" by educational standards. It could also be considered a "meeting place" for religious discussion, reading of Bible passages, verses, etc. It could also be considered a "social event" for kids to get together and/or for parents to have a break from their kids... JMO...
A little off topic: I don't know what type of church you were exposed to (maybe, a cult?), but any Christian church would never "indoctrinate" kids. A children's Sunday School (at least, in churches I have attended since I became a Christian) simply teach children Bible lessons, truths about Christ and how to become a Christian, and then grow spiritually. I have never witnessed any indoctrination. I only know about it taking place in various cults.

I know that this is beside the my question as the author of this thread, but I wanted to make it clear for the benefit of other readers of my question.

Thank you.
Some people believe any form of religious instruction is indoctrination. These are generally people who believe all religions are false and no God exists.

I know one person who actually believes taking your children to church should qualify as child abuse and should, at the very least, qualify for CPS to remove children from the parents' custody. He would actually like to see parents arrested for the act of taking children to church.
“I’m all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let’s start with typewriters.” - Frank Lloyd Wright

"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of arms" - Aristotle
User avatar
ATDM
Senior Member
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:17 pm
Location: TEXAS

Re: Is Sunday Shool considered a school from the CHL perspec

Post by ATDM »

Kythas wrote:
Some people believe any form of religious instruction is indoctrination. These are generally people who believe all religions are false and no God exists.

I know one person who actually believes taking your children to church should qualify as child abuse and should, at the very least, qualify for CPS to remove children from the parents' custody. He would actually like to see parents arrested for the act of taking children to church.
Sad to hear. This person is simply deceived and walks in the dark. Of many things being done to children in our society, he chooses to focus on the Christian upbringing? All Christian families I know personally have the safest and most thriving environment for their children. Those children are honest, disciplined, polite, academically successful and pleasant to talk to.

The person you are describing wants a Government involvement in the spiritual upbringing of children? Well, I grew up in Eastern Europe in the times, when Christian were getting arrested for going to church. That was called a TOTALITARIAN REGIME. Nazis in Germany had the same type of thinking, as well as any nanny state in history — keeping their hands in how people were raising their kids. Obviously, unlike someone who, like me, knows the horrors of an oppressive regime, the person you are describing does not really appreciate the freedoms in this land, which was founded by people seeking religious freedom.

These arrests for people's faith are still happening in places like China. Since that person agrees with their ideology, maybe he should seek home in one of those countries. This mode of thinking is not just un-American, it's anti-American, as it goes against the very grain of this country's fabric.

I would advise him to try to spend a few weeks in a country, where they would arrest people for taking kids to church. He is insulting all the people who have fought and died to keep our great Nation free. His thinking is clearly in line with a totalitarian state policies and a nanny state. He, probably, doesn't believe in the 2nd Amendment either, since it would be inconsistent with his convictions on religious freedoms (or lack thereof). Your post of this man's thinking, really brought up bad memories for me of the oppression my family experienced at the hands of the socialist fascists... He obviously has no idea that it were people LIKE HIM, with his type of extreme views, that organized that political regime.

Sad and angering.
I cling to my God — Jesus Christ.
I love my wife and kids.
I am proud to be an American and Texan.
And... I cling to my guns.
Post Reply

Return to “General Texas CHL Discussion”