When legal to draw?

[philip964]

http://www.click2houston.com/news/man-s ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So the 17000 block of Imperial Valley in Houston is where this happened. Man just getting out of his car after parking. Man walks up and asks for cigarette. Then pulls a gun.

Would you be justified in drawing your weapon as the man walks up? Or do you have to wait for him to draw first? This method seems to put you at a decided disadvantage.

For those of you not from Houston 17000 block of Imperial Valley is just across I 45 from from "Gunspoint Mall".

[jmra]

First, and most important, you have to be aware of your surroundings.
Second, don't let someone approach you unchallenged. Warn then verbally to stop and if they do not and you perceive them to be a threat, draw.

ETA: Avoid Houston.

[tomtexan]

First, and most important, you have to be aware of your surroundings.
Second, don't let someone approach you unchallenged. Warn then verbally to stop and if they do not and you perceive them to be a threat, draw.

ETA: Avoid Houston.

Best advice ever.

[texanjoker]

I can't see any legal justification for displaying a weapon on a person that merely walks up asking for a smoke. One would need to be able to articulate a lot more than that. Yes it does give the BG the upper hand, but what if the person was just asking for a smoke?

[SewTexas]

I can't see any legal justification for displaying a weapon on a person that merely walks up asking for a smoke. One would need to be able to articulate a lot more than that. Yes it does give the BG the upper hand, but what if the person was just asking for a smoke?

unfortunately, that's kinda what I was thinking....

I don't know the area of Houston this occurred in, should it be avoided? I try to avoid driving in Houston if possible. I know areas in Austin and San Antonio that you really shouldn't be getting out of your car in, heck, you probably shouldn't be IN your car in.

[WildBill]

I am confused. I don't read where any gun was pulled other than by the robber.

A man was taken to the hospital in serious condition after he was shot in the chest during an attempted robbery, police said.

Apparently the victim had just pulled into a parking spot at the Amherst At City View apartment complex in the 17000 block of Imperial Valley when the suspect approached him.

Police said the suspect asked the victim for a cigarette, and when the victim told him he didn't have any, the suspect pulled out a gun and demanded his wallet.

According to reports, the victim shoved the suspect in an effort to get away, and the suspect shot him once in the chest.

The victim was taken to the hospital in serious but stable condition. His name was not immediately released.

The suspect managed to get away; so far, no arrests have been made.

BTW, this area of Houston is not the best.

For those of you not from Houston 17000 block of Imperial Valley is just across I 45 from from "Gunspoint Mall".

I happen to work in this area of Houston called Greenspoint. During my first week of work, a co-worker referred to the area as "Gunspoint".

[Jumping Frog]

I can't see any legal justification for displaying a weapon on a person that merely walks up asking for a smoke. One would need to be able to articulate a lot more than that. Yes it does give the BG the upper hand, but what if the person was just asking for a smoke?

I agree that is insufficient. People need to realize that you must be able to articulate the facts that led you to believe you were in immediate danger from unlawful use of force.

Contrast how these two descriptions paint a different picture:

Description 1: A guy approached me in a parking lot so I pointed a gun at him. I don't know if he was armed.

Description 2: I was in a isolated parking lot with no other cars nearby. I saw the man start walking towards me. I altered course and noted he also altered his course to intercept me. I held up my left hand out in a "STOP" gesture and told him to "STOP, LEAVE ME ALONE", but he kept approaching. I noticeably placed my strong hand on the grip of my handgun while repeating the "Stop" gesture with my other hand and now telling him, "STOP RIGHT THERE, DO NOT APPROACH ME" in a command voice. He continued coming, now at a brisker pace. I drew my handgun at low ready, and told him "I AM WARNING YOU TO STOP APPROACHING ME OR I WILL SHOOT". He started running towards me. I could not see his hands. I concluded if he was still willing to continue what appears to be an attack in that manner even though he knew I was armed, he must have the means to be deadly himself and had bad intentions. I believed the entire approach to be an imminent robbery. Means, motive, opportunity. I stopped the threat.

Same basic facts but two entirely different articulations.

In fact, I had to do something very similar while filling my car with gas at the Shell Station on the corner of Imperial Valley and Greens Rd, which is less than half a block away from this robbery. I saw a man start walking towards me about 35 feet away, so I held my hand up and said, "Stop, Not Interested". He stopped, paused for a second, and then starting walking towards me again. This time, quite a bit louder and more forceful, I said, "I said STOP, go away. DON'T COME ANY CLOSER!"

This time he stopped, looked at me, and then turned and walked away. If he had taken another step towards me, I would have drawn. I won't let someone in those circumstances get within knife range.

Part of the context that I would not even have to articulate, is that any police officer responding knows that this is a very bad area. "Greens Point" isn't called "Gunspoint" by accident. I wouldn't even be in the area except my workplace is close by.

[thatguy]

I can't see any legal justification for displaying a weapon on a person that merely walks up asking for a smoke. One would need to be able to articulate a lot more than that. Yes it does give the BG the upper hand, but what if the person was just asking for a smoke?

I agree that is insufficient. People need to realize that you must be able to articulate the facts that led you to believe you were in immediate danger from unlawful use of force.

Contrast how these two descriptions paint a different picture:

Description 1: A guy approached me in a parking lot so I pointed a gun at him. I don't know if he was armed.

Description 2: I was in a isolated parking lot with no other cars nearby. I saw the man start walking towards me. I altered course and noted he also altered his course to intercept me. I held up my left hand out in a "STOP" gesture and told him to "STOP, LEAVE ME ALONE", but he kept approaching. I noticeably placed my strong hand on the grip of my handgun while repeating the "Stop" gesture with my other hand and now telling him, "STOP RIGHT THERE, DO NOT APPROACH ME" in a command voice. He continued coming, now at a brisker pace. I drew my handgun at low ready, and told him "I AM WARNING YOU TO STOP APPROACHING ME OR I WILL SHOOT". He started running towards me. I could not see his hands. I concluded if he was still willing to continue what appears to be an attack in that manner even though he knew I was armed, he must have the means to be deadly himself and had bad intentions. I believed the entire approach to be an imminent robbery. Means, motive, opportunity. I stopped the threat.

Same basic facts but two entirely different articulations.

In fact, I had to do something very similar while filling my car with gas at the Shell Station on the corner of Imperial Valley and Greens Rd, which is less than half a block away from this robbery. I saw a man start walking towards me about 35 feet away, so I held my hand up and said, "Stop, Not Interested". He stopped, paused for a second, and then starting walking towards me again. This time, quite a bit louder and more forceful, I said, "I said STOP, go away. DON'T COME ANY CLOSER!"

This time he stopped, looked at me, and then turned and walked away. If he had taken another step towards me, I would have drawn. I won't let someone in those circumstances get within knife range.

Part of the context that I would not even have to articulate, is that any police officer responding knows that this is a very bad area. "Greens Point" isn't called "Gunspoint" by accident. I wouldn't even be in the area except my workplace is close by.

Do everything possible to keep strangers at a distance.

[tarkus]

Police said the suspect asked the victim for a cigarette, and when the victim told him he didn't have any, the suspect pulled out a gun and demanded his wallet.

If you're not stuck on Marquess of Queensberry rules, that seems like the perfect time to feign compliance and reach toward your wallet, but come back with a gun blazing while stepping off the X. If an orc threatens you with deadly force, the law does not require you to also let him take the first shot.

[Oldgringo]

Police said the suspect asked the victim for a cigarette, and when the victim told him he didn't have any, the suspect pulled out a gun and demanded his wallet.

If you're not stuck on Marquess of Queensberry rules, that seems like the perfect time to feign compliance and reach toward your wallet, but come back with a gun blazing while stepping off the X. If an orc threatens you with deadly force, the law does not require you to also let him take the first shot.

If the misbegotten so-n-so has a gun pointed at you, your options are limited. Additionally, you need to have your "get back" speech rehearsed beforehand. Dark britches are also recommended.

[tbrown]

Police said the suspect asked the victim for a cigarette, and when the victim told him he didn't have any, the suspect pulled out a gun and demanded his wallet.

If you're not stuck on Marquess of Queensberry rules, that seems like the perfect time to feign compliance and reach toward your wallet, but come back with a gun blazing while stepping off the X. If an orc threatens you with deadly force, the law does not require you to also let him take the first shot.

If the misbegotten so-n-so has a gun pointed at you, your options are limited. Additionally, you need to have your "get back" speech rehearsed beforehand. Dark britches are also recommended.

Didn't Elton John have a hit song 40 years ago about The Britches Black?

[HerbM]

This is one of the perpetual problems of self-defense, especially against random criminal assaults (as opposed to altercations where you KNOW something is happening before it gets serious.)

If we present our firearm with cause (e.g., fear for our life) then we likely may be subject to criminal charges or losing our license.

If we wait too long to defend ourselves we may already be victims, robbed, injured, or dying.

There are however ways to improve our situation that go BEYOND mere adminonitions of alertness or color code levels.

My self-defense group has a module and practice we term Avoiding Criminal Attacks which is outlined and explain in some detail here: http://www.meetup.com/AustinCombatives/ ... d/10163916

Avoiding Criminal Attacks addresses everything up to the time when you are actually fighting for you life.

This is specific practice with actual methods to identify threats (as early as possible), avoid the threat when practical, tactically position ourselves to meet the threat, and if to optimize our ability to respond with counter-force if the threat actually becomes manifest.

Criminals want to minimize their own risk, so seldom will they attack "from a distance" but general prefer to get as close before manifesting their intentions. They NEED to control their victims to obtain whatever they seek. They have no intention of creating a "fair fight".

One method is the "Give him an inch and he'll take a mile." If the criminal can encroach on your space and intimidate you in small ways this both improves his odds and indicates that your are better suited as a victim (for most overtly criminal purposes.)

Besides my specific drills and techniques for maintaining alertness and threat assessment (read my link above for much of this) my main method is what I refer to as "Tripwires".

Each time the criminal crosses or ignores a barrier I have set up he "crosses a tripwire", crossing enough tripwires tells ME (and any witness or later law enforcement) that he is more certainly a threat.

If I ask him nicely, "Please back off." while he is still some reasonable distance away AND he continues the approach, he has crossed the first tripwire. He is not typically proven a threat at this point (depends on distance and the totality of the circumstances) but his threat potential has increased.

If I then command him, "Back OFF!" (it's typically delivered like a military close order drill command), and he continues then my threat assessment continues.

If I YELL at him to "BACK OFF!!!" then it is likely time to present the firearm and defend myself or my family.

This doesn't automatically mean it is either legal to shoot him OR that I am going to even present much less fire but it does mean we are very close to that point.

PLEASE NOTE: We cannot always go through this full sequence and depending on distance and context we might START WITH YELLING "BACK OFF!!!" while drawing and firing.

Part of the reason for the repeated "Back Off" and unchanging verbiage (except for the initial 'please') is to AVOID PLAYING INTO HIS GAME or SCHEME -- the criminal doesn't care about his lost dog, his cigarette light, directions to the nearest bookstore or whatever. He rather wants us to ENGAGE OUR MINDS in his game so that his approach has more chance of success.

This method TELLS US WHEN to take action. It makes that decision FAR MORE RELIABLE and FAR MORE LIKELY TO be "On Time", neither too early (legal problems) nor "Too Late".

Just the "Back Off" and movement set of actions has been measured in the very violent cauldron of urban South Africa to remove eliminate some 85% of MANIFEST criminal assaults.

When you combine that with our alertness and assessment drills as well as (eventually) presenting a weapon, running, or fighting it is likely that 99% or more of criminal assaults can be eliminated with no shots fired (merely presenting) and no serious injury.

[There is quite a bit more in my full course on this -- and I typically present or teach this for free or nominal costs.]

Now if you are reading the above and agreeing that it makes sense, please understand that through my experience teaching this and role playing with hundreds of people it has become obvious that almost no one can perform these steps correctly without both training AND PRACTICE.

If ever you are in Austin, come to our regular Austin Combatives http://www.Meetup.Com/AustinCombatives practice (Mon/Wed 6:30pm -- Sat 9am) and I will be happy to share it with you for yourself or to teach to others.

The Texas CHL http://www.txchia.org/ has asked me to present a class on these methods at their Seventeenth Annual Convention Kerrville, February 28 through March 2, 2014 so if you will be there please come introduce yourself and let's talk.

We (almost) all here carry tools for personal defense against criminal assault but practically everyone would be delighted if that assault never happens to us.

With these tools, we can reduce the likelihood of assault to a SMALL FRACTION of what our odds would be randomly, and we can IMPROVE OUR RESPONSE and our ODDS OF SUCCESS for those cases where the criminal persists despite our efforts.

Combining this with the increase ability to ARTICULATE the reasons for our actions and the actions of the criminal which let us to take those actions this offers quite a bit of protection and value for only a modest investment of time and practice. (The equivalent of a couple of range sessions.)

Ok I know this isn't as sexy or as much fun as making things go "Bang" but this practice it a critical component in *MY* self-defense plan.

--
Fight your strengths; train your weaknesses.

[tbrown]

Good points Herb. I learned a lot from Craig Douglas in his Managing Unknown Contacts class.

[HerbM]

Good points Herb. I learned a lot from Craig Douglas in his Managing Unknown Contacts class.

Thanks. You are in South Austin so maybe we'll see you up on the north side sometime.

(I promise there is more to be learned quickly.)

[philip964]

I-45 and the Sam Houston Tollway on Houston North side West of the airport is called Greenspoint named after Greens road and the Mall of the same name.

In the early 70's 80's it was a very popular growth area for real estate. Many tall buildings were constructed there. Many for Exxon. It gave quick access to the airport, Houston as well as the Woodlands and Kingwood. One would call the location ideal. A large number of garden type apartments were also constructed. In 1986 Houston went into a severe recession. Many of the garden apartments fell on hard times and may have lowered rent to attract tenants.

In the early '90's I remember feeling uncomfortable photographing outside in that area. I remember working on a number of security projects for Exxon to prevent cars from being stolen from their parking lots. Then I remember an off duty armed female Sheriff's deputy being abducted from Greenspoint Mall by persons unknown. She was later found murdered. RIP. I stopped going to the area altogether after that. Around then the Mall was unofficially renamed Gunspoint Mall, the area then being called Gunspoint.

Exxon will totally abandon the area in about a year. Without their stability and security, who knows how bad the area will sink to.

If a stranger approaches you at night in Greenspoint, you are going to be robbed, abducted or killed. They are not needing a smoke, a handout, directions, or help with a lost dog, there is however a small chance they have just been shot and need medical attention.