No 51% sign?

[Superman]

If a business that should be 51% does not post the 51% sign, can you carry on and be legal? I can't find a business on the TABC website so I was just going to go there and walk right in if I didn't see the sign. I'm wondering if I could get in trouble if I do that and the business just didn't post the sign? The business may have it posted, I just haven't been there yet is all.

[Superman]

I finally found a combo of info to query so I found the business on the TABC website. There is no listing for gun sign though :( So question is still valid...It is a brewery so I'm pretty sure over 51% of their sales are alcohol.

And I'm not a fan of this 51% stuff...I don't even drink but have to jump through these hoops

[jbarn]

If a business that should be 51% does not post the 51% sign, can you carry on and be legal? I can't find a business on the TABC website so I was just going to go there and walk right in if I didn't see the sign. I'm wondering if I could get in trouble if I do that and the business just didn't post the sign? The business may have it posted, I just haven't been there yet is all.

Texas Penal Code
Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. ....
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

Notice it says nothing about a sign. Carry at a 51% place is unlawful, sign or not.

There is a defense to prosecution listed later in that section

(k) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1) that the actor was not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code.

411.204 GC references the 51% sign.

In a defense to prosecution, one can still be arrested and prosecuted. You then have a defense you can offer in court as to why you should be found not guilty.

[jbarn]

I finally found a combo of info to query so I found the business on the TABC website. There is no listing for gun sign though :( So question is still valid...It is a brewery so I'm pretty sure over 51% of their sales are alcohol.

And I'm not a fan of this 51% stuff...I don't even drink but have to jump through these hoops

You should see a field that reads "Gun sign =Blue" or "Gun Sign = Red"

[Superman]

ok.. it's a brewery..

but are over 51% of their sales for on site consumption?

"for on-premises consumption" Thanks for pointing that out...I highly doubt they sell 51% for on-premises consumption :-)

You should see a field that reads "Gun sign =Blue" or "Gun Sign = Red"

It is blank. It does not say anything...not blue or red :-(

[Superman]

And my wife still won't forgive me for ordering her a chocolate beer.. :-)

TABC was no help on that one?? Ha!

Thanks for the info guys!

[Keith B]

And my wife still won't forgive me for ordering her a chocolate beer.. :-)

TABC was no help on that one?? Ha!

Thanks for the info guys!

A brewery falls under different licensing and I don't believe a sign is required unless they sell to visitors for on or off premise consumption. Most only give it away for consumption on premise anyway, so I am sure their on-premise consumption is not >51% of their revenue. Here's an example of the license entry:

License #: BA464642

Trade Name: SPOETZL BREWERY INC
Owner: SPOETZL BREWERY INC.
Location Address:
603 E BREWERY STREET
SHINER , TX 77984
Mailing Address:
14800 SAN PEDRO 3RD FLOOR
SAN ANTONIO , TX 78232
County: Lavaca Orig. Issue Date: 1/3/2000
Status: Current Exp. Date: 1/2/2016
Wine Percent:
Location Phone No.: 2104909128
Subordinates:
Related To: B 464640 Gun Sign:
License #: BI464643

Trade Name: SPOETZL BREWERY INC
Owner: SPOETZL BREWERY INC.
Location Address:
603 E BREWERY STREET
SHINER , TX 77984
Mailing Address:
14800 SAN PEDRO 3RD FLOOR
SAN ANTONIO , TX 78232
County: Lavaca Orig. Issue Date: 1/3/2000
Status: Current Exp. Date: 1/2/2016
Wine Percent:
Location Phone No.: 2104909128
Subordinates:
Related To: Gun Sign:

[srothstein]

Breweries, distilleries, and distribution plants all fall under different classes of licensing. They are not selling for retail use, so they are not required to post the red 51 sign. But, under 11.041 or 61.11 of the Alcoholic Beverage Code, they are required to still post the blue unlicensed carry sign. And 46.02 just makes carry on a licensed premise a felony without regard to how they sell it, so... You are good to carry in a brewery with a CHL unless they also post a 30.06 sign.

[WildBill]

Breweries, distilleries, and distribution plants all fall under different classes of licensing. They are not selling for retail use, so they are not required to post the red 51 sign. But, under 11.041 or 61.11 of the Alcoholic Beverage Code, they are required to still post the blue unlicensed carry sign. And 46.02 just makes carry on a licensed premise a felony without regard to how they sell it, so... You are good to carry in a brewery with a CHL unless they also post a 30.06 sign.

Off topic, but aren't there different ATF designations for breweries, wineries and distillers?

[o b juan]

To answer the original question..

If my memory serves;
Seems that TABC Posted all 7/11 type operations 95' 96' even though there was a sign that prohibited consumption
on premises.

One or two guys over in the houston area decided to let it be known that they were Carrying while in a 7/11; they got arrested went to court and beat it ..

Unless they were Lawyers they paid a Lawyer to defend them.. I rather doubt that Charles was involved..

I know I wouldnt have Tested the TABC's sign

[jbarn]

To answer the original question..

If my memory serves;
Seems that TABC Posted all 7/11 type operations 95' 96' even though there was a sign that prohibited consumption
on premises.

One or two guys over in the houston area decided to let it be known that they were Carrying while in a 7/11; they got arrested went to court and beat it ..

Unless they were Lawyers they paid a Lawyer to defend them.. I rather doubt that Charles was involved..

I know I wouldnt have Tested the TABC's sign

I think the question is answered. To your response, no law makes it unlawful to carry past a 51% sign. See my first post in this thread for an explanation.

The TABC does not post signs at stores, bars, etc. They determine the 51% status of the location. It is not illegal to carry right past a 51% sign posted at a non 51% location. I have seen those signs posted at places who clearly were not 51%.

[Keith B]

I think the question is answered. To your response, no law makes it unlawful to carry past a 51% sign. See my first post in this thread for an explanation.

The TABC does not post signs at stores, bars, etc. They determine the 51% status of the location. It is not illegal to carry right past a 51% sign posted at a non 51% location. I have seen those signs posted at places who clearly were not 51%.

I want to further clarify what jbarn is saying. It IS illegal to carry past a properly posted 51% sign on a 51% location. However, a 51% sign posted on a non-51% location (a place that should have the blue sign, not red) does not make the location off limits for carry since the sign is improperly posted.

Additionally, as mentioned before, a 51% location that fails to post the proper sign is still off-limits to carry by CHL. However, if you are unaware the locaiton is 51% and carry there because no or the wrong sign was psoted, then you have a defense to prosecution. In other words you have a good argument for your defense if you get arrested and have to fight it in court.

[Superman]

I think the question is answered. To your response, no law makes it unlawful to carry past a 51% sign. See my first post in this thread for an explanation.

The TABC does not post signs at stores, bars, etc. They determine the 51% status of the location. It is not illegal to carry right past a 51% sign posted at a non 51% location. I have seen those signs posted at places who clearly were not 51%.

I want to further clarify what jbarn is saying. It IS illegal to carry past a properly posted 51% sign on a 51% location. However, a 51% sign posted on a non-51% location (a place that should have the blue sign, not red) does not make the location off limits for carry since the sign is improperly posted.

Additionally, as mentioned before, a 51% location that fails to post the proper sign is still off-limits to carry by CHL. However, if you are unaware the locaiton is 51% and carry there because no or the wrong sign was psoted, then you have a defense to prosecution. In other words you have a good argument for your defense if you get arrested and have to fight it in court.

This sums it up perfectly, thank you!!