There is a place I stop in once in a while (Hamricks Craft Beer in Cedar Park) that has a 51% sign. I checked, and it's the correct sign for the location (meaning the license is a RED license). It's mostly a beer, wine, and vapor cigarette store. I do see people drinking in there once in a while (1 or 2 at most, though they do have an occasional wine tasting). I can't imagine it's possible the place derives 51% of their revenue from on premise consumption of alcohol though.
I have always believed that it's the license that makes the place illegal vs. the actual amount of revenue derived from on-premise consumption of alcohol. If that's not a correct assumption (and it can be determined what the % really is and it's less than 51%), is it still illegal to carry there?
Seems to me they have the wrong kind of liquor license. I'm guessing (but don't know this for sure) is it was just a mistake when they first opened (it used to be a convenience store like a gas station store) when it first opened, but they changed format slightly a few years ago to add Vapor cigs and ditch most of the traditional convenience store format.Seems to me that that the license for the location does not match the kind of business it is. Is this something that ought to be pointed out to TABC? I don't imagine it's illegal(or against TABC regulations) for them to have the wrong license, so maybe this is just the way it is.
51% (Red Sign but clearly not a RED sign location)
Moderators: carlson1, Charles L. Cotton
Re: 51% (Red Sign but clearly not a RED sign location)
It appears, according to the TABC Public Inquiry Site (https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/PublicInquiry/Status.aspx) that their license was initially granted in 2013, and expires in 2015. As I understand, for a first time license, the RED/BLUE status is based on an estimate provided by the applicant. Renewals, however, require them to provide actual numbers, and at that time, it may be modified to BLUE.
Since the TABC has it as a RED license at this time, it is illegal to carry there even if you believe it's not really a 51% on-site.
Since the TABC has it as a RED license at this time, it is illegal to carry there even if you believe it's not really a 51% on-site.
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CleverNickname
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Re: 51% (Red Sign but clearly not a RED sign location)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the fact that they're licensed for on-site consumption and they make 51%+ of their revenue from alcohol are the deciding factors. It doesn't matter what percentage of the alcohol sold is consumed on-site, only the percentage of all revenue. Does TABC even track the percentage of alcohol consumed on-site vs. elsewhere?
Re: 51% (Red Sign but clearly not a RED sign location)
I believe it's the type of licence. Normally it's either on site or off site with most licences you can't have both. A licence, not necessarily the only one, that has both would be an ice house licence. I worked at one and there was no difference in onsite or offsite sales that I remember.
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srothstein
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Re: 51% (Red Sign but clearly not a RED sign location)
The answer on this is kind of technical and a result of a blank spot in TABC rules. First, the law says it is illegal to carry there if TABC determines that it is a 51% location (51% of income from sales of alcoholic beverages for on premise consumption). It is important to note that this is if TABC determines it, not if it actually does sell 51%. In this case, TABC has made the determination that it is a 51% location.
The second half of this problem is in the TABC application procedure. TABC uses the application to make the determination. The initial application asks for estimates while renewal applications ask for real sales. The problem with the application is that it is based on the faulty assumption that licenses are issued for either on or off premises consumption. The questions ask for the amount of income from the sale of alcoholic beverages, food, and everything else. It does not separate the alcohol part into off and on premise sales. TABC can use these answers to determine the percentage from alcohol BUT for the few types of licenses that allow both on and off premise sales (mostly beer and wine licenses), TABC cannot make a true determination of what the percentage for on premise consumption is.
I do not know if any location can make a true determination in advance of the on and off premise sales, and I am not sure they can make that determination from real sales. Most places do not track the on and off premise sales separately in their receipts and accounting systems. Until both halves (TABC application and store accounting) of this get changed, I think we will have to accept a few mistakes in the determination.
The second half of this problem is in the TABC application procedure. TABC uses the application to make the determination. The initial application asks for estimates while renewal applications ask for real sales. The problem with the application is that it is based on the faulty assumption that licenses are issued for either on or off premises consumption. The questions ask for the amount of income from the sale of alcoholic beverages, food, and everything else. It does not separate the alcohol part into off and on premise sales. TABC can use these answers to determine the percentage from alcohol BUT for the few types of licenses that allow both on and off premise sales (mostly beer and wine licenses), TABC cannot make a true determination of what the percentage for on premise consumption is.
I do not know if any location can make a true determination in advance of the on and off premise sales, and I am not sure they can make that determination from real sales. Most places do not track the on and off premise sales separately in their receipts and accounting systems. Until both halves (TABC application and store accounting) of this get changed, I think we will have to accept a few mistakes in the determination.
Steve Rothstein
Re: 51% (Red Sign but clearly not a RED sign location)
This place does not serve food and I'd guess 60% of their business is wine and beer (folks buying and walking out) with the remaining being vapor cigarette stuff and other misc things. I've seen wine stores (one in Fredericksburg TX another in Cedar Park years ago before it closed) that have the 51% sign, and maybe it's the same sort of situation (correct sign for a incorrect license type). After re-reading 46.035 closely, it's about having a license 'as determined' by TABC -- which in cases like this is based on incorrect information in an application I suppose. If the licensed TABC issues based on incorrect license is the 51% license, I guess that's that…srothstein wrote:The answer on this is kind of technical and a result of a blank spot in TABC rules. First, the law says it is illegal to carry there if TABC determines that it is a 51% location (51% of income from sales of alcoholic beverages for on premise consumption). It is important to note that this is if TABC determines it, not if it actually does sell 51%. In this case, TABC has made the determination that it is a 51% location.
The second half of this problem is in the TABC application procedure. TABC uses the application to make the determination. The initial application asks for estimates while renewal applications ask for real sales. The problem with the application is that it is based on the faulty assumption that licenses are issued for either on or off premises consumption. The questions ask for the amount of income from the sale of alcoholic beverages, food, and everything else. It does not separate the alcohol part into off and on premise sales. TABC can use these answers to determine the percentage from alcohol BUT for the few types of licenses that allow both on and off premise sales (mostly beer and wine licenses), TABC cannot make a true determination of what the percentage for on premise consumption is.
I do not know if any location can make a true determination in advance of the on and off premise sales, and I am not sure they can make that determination from real sales. Most places do not track the on and off premise sales separately in their receipts and accounting systems. Until both halves (TABC application and store accounting) of this get changed, I think we will have to accept a few mistakes in the determination.
I guess there is some proposed legislation for the upcoming session to remove some of the places prohibited to carry, so maybe this will be a moot point next year. Absent that, maybe a slight change in 46.035 stating the prohibition is based on ACTUAL on-premise sales would fix this. Or maybe it's not a big enough problem to worry about and we deal with it by not patronizing places like that...